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[Splint]

Anything that is defined in the entity that uses the bow and crossbow skills can be made in the bowyer no matter what. As such they can only be assigned to nonplayable entities directly. Otherwise you need to use custom reactions to produce things that you should be buying or producing the "proper" way. For example if you want Ratskins to be packing stub pistols and autoguns while playing them (which you shouldn't be doing since they don't fit well with the mod's theme as far as playing them goes,) then they need to either use the same buildings the hivers do or need thier own place and reactions to do so. Same goes even for basic guns like muskets.

Spoiler: Ratskins (click to show/hide)

If you really want to make the ratskins playable more power to you, but they aren't meant to be; they're nomads save a few scattered settlements/outposts, not likely to just arbitrarily start settlements more apt to attract underhive scum like...Fff, I dunno, Orlock or Goliath outcasts or something than fellow ratskins.

Ninja'd by Meph but the ratskins point stands.

[Jdorf]

OK, think I mostly follow you, but what normally prevents them from appearing at the bowyer (say, when you play as the Orlocks)? Apologies if this has been answered elsewhere in the thread.

Really just altering them to play as them myself (in a separate UHS installation), so moving crossbows and crossbow pistols across to their own custom workshop wouldn't be too problematic if all it did was mean the AI didn't use them in sieges. So if I take crossbows or guns into a new bowyer2 (or whatever) workshop, and then remove the normal bowyer from permitted buildings, that should prevent whichever type didn't get moved from being produced?

Splint: I'm actually only after being able to make, say, stub pistols/shotguns/muskets for the Ratskins, but having them able to use most non-heavy weapons - they're perfectly able to use firearms in Necromunda (or at least some of them are), but obviously don't produce all that many. Am I right in thinking this boils down to "if they're a permitted weapon, they /will/ get produced in the bowyer if nowhere else", so it's either 'no guns' or 'guns and gun infrastructure'?

Btw cheers for all the help guys.

(edit: curse my overexcitable posting. I know what you mean about Ratskins not exactly being a fortressy faction, more just wanted to play as one of those isolated settlements; maybe having been driven off normal routes by another faction, or something like that)

[Splint]

Orlocks/whatever house you play as can't make them in the bowyer because as Meph mentioned, they aren't permitted in the entity file (for example,  [WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_AUTOGUN] means a faction can produce the autogun, and do so at the bowyer if it uses the bow or crossbow skill. without this, they need to buy them, loot them, or make them via custom reactions.) I dunno if weapons that use the blowgunner or throwing skill are affected as well.

So in short yes, you need the infrastructure or you need to make due with lesser weapons and buy the guns from passing caravans so as to not be all exploit-y.

[Jdorf]

Ahhhhhh, the penny's dropped. Went and checked the entity files for Orlocks, and I see what you mean - guess I just assumed they had the "weapon_etc" bit because they could produce them in-game, but they've only got broken autoguns listed there. I'll maybe knock up a custom reaction for muskets and just get rid of all the others then; thanks again for clearing things up for me.

[Suds Zimmerman]

Wow, this is still getting interest. Sorry I haven't posted much lately.

Regarding the non-hiver civs, Meph and Splint already explained the bulk of the issues, I was planning to make a set of playable raws for ratskins and scavvies at some point. As I'm thinking right now, they'd play a lot like Kobold Camp, with limited digging ability but the capability to extract more scrap from the environment and turn it into weapons and building materials. Scavvies would also have the ability to convert civ members into butcherable forms and the ability to make toxic gas traps.

The lead bullets/shot can actually be picked up and fired again, but because you can't really merge them with stacks of bought and produced ammo, there's not much point to it (to say nothing of the problem of how exactly you're firing the bullet alone without having the rest of the cartridge), so the most honest thing to do is melt them down.

I don't quite remember what the problem with the liaisons is - do the Guilders send liaisons as they're supposed to? Hiver caravans are more supposed to be local traders without the freedom to pick and choose what they carry, whilst Guilders were meant to be the main traders who actually fulfill orders and such.

Assuming that there's actually a DFHack for the new version around, I'll probably start updating again, since that was the main impediment to starting right when the new version was released, given that so much of this mod is dependent on it.

Spoiler question:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Do the cultists have the proper delay before they start summoning daemons? You're supposed to let them work for a few years before they can actually summon one - they're not supposed to start flooding your settlement as soon as one cultist shows up.

Also, if you have more fort stories, I'd love to hear them. Maybe even a community fort or something.

[Splint]

I had a single community game using this mod, but that sort of dried up due to a mix of losing interest myself (due to lack of invaders) and only a handful of the population getting any screen time as it were. Plus the Lowes man. They practically owned the place by sheer numbers.

As to DFhack i wasn't aware this mod had any dependence on it.

[Suds Zimmerman]

It's mostly little things, such as transformations, wearable gauntlets and respirators that are dependent on DFhack. Admittedly fairly minor, but they're big enough annoyances that I didn't want to go on ahead (despite the fact that miners for whom respirators are intended cannot even wear them!)

That's a shame about the invaders. Perhaps you should've settled somewhere else. Last I played I was constantly harangued by all the lowlifes mucking around the hive, though I've yet to get a cavern mutant attack ever, despite them being in the raws.

Actually, regarding the Ratskins it just occurred to me that they probably wouldn't be able to produce nitrocellulose propellant and chemical primers on their own, restricting them to domestic production of black powder cartridges for muskets and crossbow bolts, restricting proper ammunition and advanced firearms to trade items. The problem is that with the fantastic geology of the Hive, there aren't any easy sources of sulfur and saltpeter as in vanilla DF, so I'd appreciate it if someone could suggest some semi-plausible alternatives.

ninja edit: does anyone know if the localization patcher still works with the new version? I'd like to be able to have the basic skill names changed in the game file itself, as well as the renaming of quivers to bandoliers and other such cosmetic edits.

[Splint]

I embarked close enough to House Delaque renegades and pit slaves that I expected a small but steady stream of pistol-waving psychos and belligerent jerks with  a trenchcoat fetish killing people. My noncommunity one was attacked twice somewhat early on and only repelled thanks to having enough rifles and shotguns to go around and (just barely enough) ammo for them. If I had continued playing I probably would have seen semi-regular attacks.

As to Ratskin ammo production, a couple mods have potash used as a substitute to saltpeter, and I'm sure they could mix together some sort of crude approximation of sulfur (or maybe a unique workshop that scrounges together sulfurous garbage and fungi from around the area at a very slow pace?)

[Meph]

ninja edit: does anyone know if the localization patcher still works with the new version? I'd like to be able to have the basic skill names changed in the game file itself, as well as the renaming of quivers to bandoliers and other such cosmetic edits.

Yes, insolor even posted several string dumps, and a how to to make your own.

[Suds Zimmerman]

As to Ratskin ammo production, a couple mods have potash used as a substitute to saltpeter, and I'm sure they could mix together some sort of crude approximation of sulfur (or maybe a unique workshop that scrounges together sulfurous garbage and fungi from around the area at a very slow pace?)

Oh, yeah, that's obvious. Potash is already used in primer production, so I don't know why I didn't think of that. Been a while, I guess. Thank you.

Yes, insolor even posted several string dumps, and a how to to make your own.

Neat. I guess nothing is stopping me, then.

[Jdorf]

Suds: I feel like the liaison who turned up once but never again was actually from the house, but the guilders definitely haven't sent one - or, if they have (ie the sole liaison was from the guild and I'm just misremembering, which is totally possible), he hasn't shown up again for twelve years.

I had a similar thought about the Ratskins and guns; like, maybe they could make musket cartridges from gunpowder, paper and lead or something. Got the custom reaction/gun comps items sorted now and that seems to work, so my hardy 'skins can make muskets but not, say, wooden autoguns. Was thinking about maybe adding some custom crossbow bolts like 'poisoned tips' and such, but I dunno if that would work and/or if it'd suddenly make them heinously overpowered. It's fun to try though.

So far I've just got them using "makeshift picks" (the cudgel becomes a 'haft' which steel or ferrum's then added to, much like the nailbat reaction) rather than rockdrills, which does have the effect of making them noticeably less efficient miners in conjunction with their learning mining slowly, but there's definitely something a little bit odd about the image of a bunch of Ratskins mining into the hive terrain, so your idea about somehow extracting scrap from the environment seems like a better approach.

 It occurred to me as well, of all the factions in-game, Ratskins seem like the most likely (fluff-wise) candidates for using dorf-style nightmare trap mazes (or at least that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it); their settlements (such as they are) would probably be semi-hidden and defended by warriors and trickery, not towering walls and heavy stubbers. Speaking of which, got to put them into action for the first time yesterday; they're freaking awesome. Is the transformation back into hiver a time-based thing, or is there an internal ammo counter on the emplacements?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

 I was being a bit in-character with the "blood daemon" stuff; what actually happened, as far as I can tell, was that there was one chaos cultist and one actual vampire (the aforementioned daemon). I thought the latter was the former, but when the vampire started biting people in the middle of the siege room, the cultist went nuts as well. Dunno if they were actually connected; if not, that cultist completely screwed themselves over, because I would've thought the problem was solved after killing off the vampire

Been keeping notes on my Orlock save, so I'll post some more stories later on. Nothing's been quite as much Fun as that first siege, but millisaurs are certainly not to be fucked with.

[Suds Zimmerman]

It's a time-based thing. Theoretically I think you could have an ammo counter based on DFHack trickery, but that would be overly complicated and provide far too many opportunities for catastrophic failure relative to the reward.

What I'm thinking so far for ratskins is that they'd be able to make spirit totems from rare pieces of scrap which grant their wielders something like 75% immunity to bullets (though given how DF damage calculations work and how absurdly powerful bullets are, 25% of the existing damage might still be enough to put them out of commission) and immunity to fear or something, in order to let them close with ranged attackers. Musket ammo would be made from charcoal, potash and lead. Poisoned bolts is a good idea - I would've liked to have them in sieges, somehow, but I couldn't think of a way to do it, so I just skipped past that, especially since most people wouldn't see a ratskin siege.

One thing I might do is let them dig through ash but greatly restrict other stone digging, so they can reach some useful resources but not sufficient amounts to set up massive industries.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

That's strange - did you use the worldgen included with the mod? Was he actually referred to as a vampire in-game? It might be an interface quirk, assuming that you disabled the hardcoded vampires.

[Jdorf]

I didn't use the "Primus Underhive" worldgen, if that's what you mean.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

 He was called a vampire in-game, aye, and AFAIK I haven't disabled (or enabled) anything vampire-related. He definitely 'looked' like a standard vampire though; "X Alias was cursed by Y to become a vampire in [years ago] in the deities info and all that. Maybe an interface quirk, but don't think it particularly matters - vampires are pretty much a thing in 40k anyway so it's not like I was sat there going "AUGH MY IMMERSION".

Edit: Damn I'm bad at remembering everything I meant to post. The spirit totem idea sounds pretty thematic and helpful; otherwise it's liable to end up (very much like the old "crossbows used only as melee weapons" problem, in fact) with a whole camp getting killed or starved out by one pistolier because they can't/won't bumrush him. Which is actually entirely reasonable - I sure as hell wouldn't volunteer to be the bullet-sponge - but, y'know, games.

[Splint]

I got a cultist exactly once. After my broker turned up dead I watched everyone like a hawk and locked the fucker in a broom closet the next time he tried to get blood for his rituals.

[Jdorf]

So I've run a few tryouts with the Ratskins, and it is - as expected - ridiculously hard; having most workshops and such out in the open means dust storms fuck everything up (I actually didn't realise they destroyed buildings, unless that was just me accidentally marking it to be removed) pretty effectively, and with no guns all it takes is a wolf spider or a wild grox to basically end the whole tribe.

Still strangely compelling though; it's like the early days of a fort (or in a particularly awful location) where managing to bring down an animal or finding one chunk of valuable ore is a big thing, except permanently.