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[AutomataKittay]

The breech sealing problem was solved almost a century ago IRL, it just wasn't really worth it on anything smaller than an artillery. Caseless ammo might be relatively high tech to not cook off, but combustible casing's been used successfully on heavier guns. There're also handling issues and so on that makes cased ammunition a lot more practical and reliable than caseless or even separated charges. One of them would be fouling, caseless ammunition are a bit more 'dirty' for the breech and internal mechanisms, but that's not necessarily a game-stopper as M-16 showed.

Yeah, caseless weapons aren't difficult to make in principle, they're just not very good in automatic weapons because of cook-off issues and need more maintance for similar propellants. What they are good at are conserving materials normally used for casing and reducing weight of ammunition.

Alternatively, there're this thing about making the bullet itself a casing like such http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_Ball , which would technically be caseless!

And yes that's correct about nitrocellulose being castable, most solid propellants can be through some method or another. Some of earlier attempts at caseless used nitrocellulose on it's own.

Sorry for derailing! Just found it interesting to note a few things

[Suds Zimmerman]

But ammo without a quiver (even renamed to cartidge) is impossible to mod into DF. Dwarves need to carry a quiver with their ammo. So have the reaction produce bullets, and use the quiver as cartride. Done.

This is more a problem of realism and research rather than DF's limitations. We're talking about the casing part of firearms cartridges (which are often mistakenly referred to as bullets.) Most modern cartridges have a brass or steel casing which contains a primer (shock-sensitive explosive material) that is set off by the firing pin and in turn sets off the deflagration of the propellant (ie, gunpowder, typically a nitrocellulose-based material) which propels the bullet (the projectile) via the pressure generated by the expanding gases resulting from deflagration.

In the 40k lore, autoguns and autopistols use a caseless design where the casing is omitted. This theoretically reduces some problems (since you don't need to worry about extracting the spent casing, there's one less mechanical step which increases the reliability, and as you can have a better sealed design due to that, there are less openings for grime and dirt to get in) but leads to others (you need some way to contain all that pressure so that it's all directed towards propelling the bullet, you need to worry about overheating, since you don't have the hot casing to absorb heat and leave the firearm. Lastly, because these designs tend to generate a lot of heat, you need to worry about your casing-less cartridges getting so hot that they spontaneously fire or 'cook off' inside your magazine. H&K got around this problem somewhat by using a special propellant that will not deflagrate unless set off by temperatures significantly higher than those required by standard nitrocellulose-based formulations.)

As Carch and AutomataKittay described, the problems are a pretty major obstacle to making a practical caseless firearm, especially when you're dealing with a traditional cottage industry as depicted in this mod. This is especially so considering that most autoguns depicted in the setting are fairly similar in appearance to typical 20th century automatic rifles and therefore wouldn't have any built-in solutions to the cooking-off and overheating problems. So I'm left to assume that the firearms are indeed typical 20th century designs but the ammunition is significantly different, and that whilst any bumblefuck hiver can bang together an autogun using hand tools and junk steel, the majority of hivers either use bought caseless cartridges which come from established ammunition factories or make their own cased cartridges with the same dimensions. I'm sure, of course, that nobody working for Games Workshop in any capacity gave this problem any thought since it appears that nobody in that company knows the first thing about science or engineering (as the depleted deuterium bolter shell debacle illustrates.)

Of course, if someone could devise a good semi-feasible method to manufacture caseless cartridges in-game I'll be sure to put it in as a nod to the setting. Though at this point it feels as if the current manufacturing method for ammunition is complicated enough as it is.

Sorry for derailing! Just found it interesting to note a few things

Don't worry about it. This kind of discussion is great.

[TastyMints]

The stamping press is deprecated and not even supposed to be in there any more, the pistol stub thing is easily fixed, and I'm well aware that auto cartridges are supposed to be caseless. The problem is that when I called Heckler and Koch they wouldn't tell me what the binder for their caseless cartridges. I don't think you can make a solid little block of propellant out of nitrocellulose alone. Until someone can help me out with the science, I'm going to just assume that the hivers are as stupid as I am and have decided to rely on an older, more reliable form of cartridge assembly. Not that I'm against the idea by any stretch of the imagination, just need some data.

Sorry about the stamping press thing then, but do note that the cartridge factory requires a metal stamping press to be built, thus invalidating the workshop.

On the note of the binding agents and propellant blocks, I highly doubt you'll get anybody to cough up proprietary research, especially chemical research, on a binding agent meant to be completely dissolved or expelled by the reaction of the propellant combusting. That's the sort of thing that businesses and even governments guard extremely closely.

However, binding agents come in two forms: Gum-based binders which are made from plants, and Glue binders made from animal parts. It wouldn't be too far of a stretch to add another material to chymistry manufactured from, say, plants or trees. I was looking around for some interesting plants that might be easily addable to the existing plants and came up with something called a Konjac that looks pretty unique and could be one of the plants that was cross-bred to survive in the Underhive. Its root bulbs consist of 40% glucomannan gum which could be used by itself or processed with another industry product (like lime milk) in order to create the binding agent you need.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

So here's an idea process: Allow lime milk to be dried into Calcium Hydroxide in the Chymistry industry, and mix it with Konjac gum in order to create a binding agent item used in place of brass for autogun cartridges. The binding agent itself does not remain a liquid/viscous consistency, but is polymorphed into a crystalline structure (Aragonite, or Calcium Carbonate) that attaches the propellant block to the bullet with a substance that will easily break apart and dissolve during the firing reaction. The reaction from Calcium Hydroxide to Calcium Carbonate is as simple as adding Carbon Dioxide, which I am sure is readily available in the polluted Underhive's atmosphere.

I'm sure, of course, that nobody working for Games Workshop in any capacity gave this problem any thought since it appears that nobody in that company knows the first thing about science or engineering (as the depleted deuterium bolter shell debacle illustrates.)

You're more right than you might think. As far as Games Workshop is concerned, Specialist Games like Necromunda don't matter to them anymore. If you look at their site, they're even dropping the miniature catalogs.

Though at this point it feels as if the current manufacturing method for ammunition is complicated enough as it is.

I thought something similar, but when I realized that I usually bum-rush the production of shotguns and seeing their extreme efficacy in dealing with the threats my fortress has on a regular basis I would recommend rearranging the firepower of weapons. In my opinion, something that differentiates the production methods of shotguns from autoweapons like which resources are more intensive for their creation works, but they have to have actual advantages to building them that match the change in cost.

As it stands, shotguns are crazy strong. Recently a a Malcedon Spyrer appeared in my fortress.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I also notice that in the raws, shotshells are listed as having "EDGE" token variable. It may be prudent to change this to "BLUNT" as for some reason I do not think a shotgun blowing the leg off of a spyrer while axes bounce off of his armor as how this was intended to go down.

[Suds Zimmerman]

Sorry about the stamping press thing then, but do note that the cartridge factory requires a metal stamping press to be built, thus invalidating the workshop.

Oh! Thanks for that, I nearly forgot that. I'll be sure to keep it in for workshop purposes.

-snip-
SCIENCE AND INNOVATION

Man, thanks a bunch for all that. You can be certain that's going in the next version.

I thought something similar, but when I realized that I usually bum-rush the production of shotguns and seeing their extreme efficacy in dealing with the threats my fortress has on a regular basis I would recommend rearranging the firepower of weapons. In my opinion, something that differentiates the production methods of shotguns from autoweapons like which resources are more intensive for their creation works, but they have to have actual advantages to building them that match the change in cost.

As it stands, shotguns are crazy strong. Recently a a Malcedon Spyrer appeared in my fortress...

To be fair, the shotgun is king in Necromunda. And those are ferrum axes, though I'm not sure if steel can penetrate Spyrer armour either. I think it does. The values are hard to get right.
I certainly didn't intend shotguns to outpace all the other ranged weapons, however. What I wanted was for them to be highly effective against unarmoured targets (capable of blowing off limbs) but unable to penetrate any kind of armour above ferrum. Considering the absurd values I use to simulate the effects of firearms, it's been difficult getting the values so there's still a noticeable difference between them whilst still having all the guns remain properly lethal. I'll have to do some more tedious arena testing, but I'll try to re-jigger them so that there is more of a benefit for building auto weapons.

PS Did that malcadon actually use his hide ability and web shooting as he is intended to? I haven't had a visit yet so I couldn't check if it was fine in fortress mode.

PPS (Also, I didn't actually call H&K. I can't even afford their guns, and I think even their customer service department would turn up their noses at me.)

[TastyMints]

Oh! Thanks for that, I nearly forgot that. I'll be sure to keep it in for workshop purposes.

You are very welcome.

Man, thanks a bunch for all that. You can be certain that's going in the next version.

If making a new plant doesn't strike your fancy, or if you'd prefer someone else shoulder a bit of the burden, I would be willing to make the Konjac and its byproducts for you. I had something in mind like milling the Konjacs into powdered corms and buds, so the buds could be replanted and the powdered corms could be made into either food products (jelly, flour) or into plant gum for autocartridge manufacturing.

To be fair, the shotgun is king in Necromunda. And those are ferrum axes, though I'm not sure if steel can penetrate Spyrer armour either. I think it does. The values are hard to get right.
I certainly didn't intend shotguns to outpace all the other ranged weapons, however. What I wanted was for them to be highly effective against unarmoured targets (capable of blowing off limbs) but unable to penetrate any kind of armour above ferrum. Considering the absurd values I use to simulate the effects of firearms, it's been difficult getting the values so there's still a noticeable difference between them whilst still having all the guns remain properly lethal. I'll have to do some more tedious arena testing, but I'll try to re-jigger them so that there is more of a benefit for building auto weapons.

That's very good to hear, thank you.

PS Did that malcadon actually use his hide ability and web shooting as he is intended to? I haven't had a visit yet so I couldn't check if it was fine in fortress mode.

She did indeed use her web shooting ability. Luckily for me she farted her webs in an off-direction rather than directly into the center of my militia. That might have turned out much worse. Or maybe not, since I always keep my fortresses protected with a wall lined with fortifications that is always manned with at least two hivers with shotguns over the gate.

Her hide ability gave me An Ambush! Curse Them! time stops for some time. She would use it every so often and created a puff of smoke and that message. Eventually I got tired of watching her run around after she murdered a ratskin caravan and decided to put her down.

I traded her Mono Blade to Guilders for a metric boat load of supplies, bulk shotshell crates, a fuel rod, and a chain weapon crate.

PPS (Also, I didn't actually call H&K. I can't even afford their guns, and I think even their customer service department would turn up their noses at me.)

I tend to be gullible sometimes.

[Suds Zimmerman]

Wait, was it female? They're supposed to be all male. Did you modify the Spyrers so they can breed? Also, was it properly (as in charging towards the shortest path to your hivers) aggressive? I'm thinking the [AMBUSHPREDATOR] tag might cause problems with that.

As for the offer to help out, I appreciate it, but I'd rather get in there myself so I don't start forgetting more of exactly what is in the raws. What I'd appreciate more is if you kept playing and reporting bugs, since I don't have much time to do that myself.

Also, you can turn off the pausing on ambushes through the announcments.txt file in your init folder. Then again, you might not want to.

[TastyMints]

Wait, was it female? They're supposed to be all male. Did you modify the Spyrers so they can breed? Also, was it properly (as in charging towards the shortest path to your hivers) aggressive? I'm thinking the [AMBUSHPREDATOR] tag might cause problems with that.

As for the offer to help out, I appreciate it, but I'd rather get in there myself so I don't start forgetting more of exactly what is in the raws. What I'd appreciate more is if you kept playing and reporting bugs, since I don't have much time to do that myself.

Also, you can turn off the pausing on ambushes through the announcments.txt file in your init folder. Then again, you might not want to.

It may simply be my memory getting mixed up or having accidentally viewed one of the ratskins the Spyrer was slaughtering. I suppose I can't double check at this point, but I'll keep an eye out next time. Edit: It pretty much makes a B-line for any kind of entity related creature. I have a drawbridge set-up that allows me to completely shut off access to my settlement, so the Spyrer just wandered around for a time. When I opened my gate and massed my militia it came straight for them.

As for the help discussion, that's fair enough and I understand. I'll spend the time that I would have otherwise spent on cobbling together raws on playing the game.

On that note: I get a lot of Giant Raft Spider megabeasts. Though some of the problems I have with Megabeasts and Sieges may simply stem from my location. I'm not sure. I'm hesitant to generate a new world and build a whole new fortress to see when I've already established a working settlement.

Edit 2: I take back what I said about sieges and eventfulness. Ambush parties of Scavvies and Scalies just showed up near my gates. Poor Farmer Jubeo, he never had a chance.

[Meph]

The force script seems to always force ambushes if a civ has the AMBUSHER tag. Even if they theoratically could send sieges, the script only spawns ambushes. At least thats my experience, from several hundrets of goblin ambushes I spawned.

[Jaso11111]

Wow i finally got around to trying the gun system in the mod and...
Well lets say that im pretty sure that there are Khornate demons that are more friendly that this. Thats not to say its bad on the on the contrary its quite good! But i have too admit im happy that i dont have to into complex steps for gun making in my mod
God i love Ork tech...
Anyway i actually have a question: I noticed that you say that some of the guns have varying rates of fire. How did you do that? Is there a value i can tinker too change that?
Cheers

[Meph]

Weapons are fired as soon as the last fired ammo hits a target. The higher the velocity of the ammo, the shorter the time till it hits something, the shorter the time till a dwarf fires again. In short: raise the velocity.

[Suds Zimmerman]

The other method I used is weight. Higher weight = slower firing. Also, I think that velocity thing was quietly changed at some point. After some point, no matter what the velocity was I couldn't go back to the crossbow machine guns of the versions before the military update. Here's to hoping the next version increases ranged weapon modding options.

[Godlysockpuppet]

Can't you use that localization patch to rename quivers bandoliers or something?

[Suds Zimmerman]

I already did. Are you playing an older version or something?

[Godlysockpuppet]

I already did. Are you playing an older version or something?

No it just occurred to me. I dont even have a computer at the moment. This is on my phone

[Baijiu]

This mod is great but just one teensy request... could you do what Meph did for his mod and organize the buildings menu? It's too cluttered at the moment!

Also: all vermin are converted into rat burgers, which is kinda odd when cockroaches go in and rat meat comes out. What's wrong with simple vermin meat/burgers instead?

And it might just be me but Orlock traders don't leave the map, even after meeting with the right representative and displaying item demand for the next visit. I have two so far that are hanging out on the southern border and I don't know what to do with them. They should eventually go crazy right?