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[GoombaGeek]

I don't get why everyone is getting so uptight about this but okay, geez. It's terrible that someone could be carrying a flag or something because that's unrealistic! Gameyness! Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

First off, how do you fight while drumming? Second off, when a group gets large enough, organization is worth a fraction of a percent of your forces.

Drop the drum and run
Also what's with this "organization is bad arghblargh" business, are we that adverse to real military organization or are we just unwilling to say that organization is important and they were right? Because discipline actually matters and tactics is a real thing. Even if you have like five people fighting off a large force, guerrilla fighters did not accomplish anything by bumrushing the enemy just like in real life. They were organized and they knew what they were doing - such terrible unrealisticness! Organization is weak!

Okay, poorly-phrased.
In conflicts of a few dozen people, almost no advantage can be derived from having a drummer or standard-bearer or something.

Yes, but then this is the capital of a dwarven empire containing 200 dwarves because of computer limitations. Remember Skyrim's epic battle scenes with all those vast armies? And besides, maybe someone just wants to hold a goddamn flag and make their ancestors proud. A flag is how one side says that "this is mine and nobody is getting it without a fight". It's a symbol of who the dwarves are, not a bonus-giving manapole.

Yes, flags are so scary...
I can easily imagine scarier things goblins could have than standards and drums. Like dead babies, or fire, or goblins.

So the issue here is that flags aren't menacing enough? They're cultural, not for shock. People will use actual dead babies if they want to be scary. And besides, here's a story about the flag of Austria, as told by Wikipedia:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

According to legend, the flag was invented by Duke Leopold V of Austria as a consequence of his fighting during the Siege of Acre. After a fierce battle, his white surcoat was completely drenched in blood. When he removed his belt, the cloth underneath was untouched by it, revealing the combination of red-white-red. So taken was he by this singular sight that he adopted the colors and scheme as his banner.

Nope. Flags are lame.

[CrzyMonkeyNinja]

Personally, I would really like my fortress to have a banner. It makes the civ's symbol good for more than just engravings. It might be nice to have a flag for just the fort too. When it comes to moral, I think that a banner hung in the barracks could suppress some unhappy thoughts, but I don’t think a banner carried into battle should be much of a morale booster (though I do think it would be cool to have a banner on a pike in the Captain of the Guard's squad). I would also like different thoughts to come from battle. Instead of “He has witnessed death” or “He has taken joy in slaughter”, I would like to see “He has defended his home in battle” or “He has lost many comrades lately” or maybe even “He has lost a commanding officer lately”. Having a flag could create more of the “He has been proud to serve in the military” sort of thoughts and suppress the miserable “death” thoughts.

[Nonsequitorian]

I like the post above me. Good idea.

Also I think having a flag would be cool too. Being able to see your dwarves from your fort with your flag icon beside them in legends mode would be cool.

[GiglameshDespair]

Flags could work somewhat like making memorial slabs. First you make a plain flag, which can be constructed or wielded. A flag would take a unit of cloth and a spear - metal or wooden. Then a dyer can dye insignia on to a flag: the flag of squads, your civ or your group of dwarves (and maybe later guilds, if they get reintroduced). Dwarves who like tradition could get a good though from seeing a built flag of your civ beyond that of the dwarves who don't, though they could also get an unhappy thought from seeing a flag construction toppled "...Urist's nation was disrespected lately."

Flags could be toppled by level 1 building destroyers, so they really aren't very durable. Flags not of your civ or group of dwarves can also be built as trophies. Seeing trophies gives dwarves a happy thought "...was impressed by the might of [civ] recently" or somesuch.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I don't get why everyone is getting so uptight about this but okay, geez. It's terrible that someone could be carrying a flag or something because that's unrealistic! Gameyness! Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

DF tries to avoid this kind of stuff. It's why there aren't hit points and why food doesn't accelerate healing.

Please separate your stuff from mine...

First off, how do you fight while drumming? Second off, when a group gets large enough, organization is worth a fraction of a percent of your forces.

Drop the drum and run
Also what's with this "organization is bad arghblargh" business, are we that adverse to real military organization or are we just unwilling to say that organization is important and they were right? Because discipline actually matters and tactics is a real thing. Even if you have like five people fighting off a large force, guerrilla fighters did not accomplish anything by bumrushing the enemy just like in real life. They were organized and they knew what they were doing - such terrible unrealisticness! Organization is weak!

Dropping the drum and running is neither drumming nor fighting.
Organization isn't badm you just don't need a drum or flag for it at such small scales.

Okay, poorly-phrased.
In conflicts of a few dozen people, almost no advantage can be derived from having a drummer or standard-bearer or something.

Yes, but then this is the capital of a dwarven empire containing 200 dwarves because of computer limitations. Remember Skyrim's epic battle scenes with all those vast armies? And besides, maybe someone just wants to hold a goddamn flag and make their ancestors proud. A flag is how one side says that "this is mine and nobody is getting it without a fight". It's a symbol of who the dwarves are, not a bonus-giving manapole.

That's something that will be changed once we can have a fortress of tens of thousands of dwarves without our computers committing ritual suicide.
I don't play Skyrim. Or any Elder Scrolls games. Or much of any VRPG.
I'm not against giving flags to dwarves, I just doubt that any advantage would be gained from it. Unless it's a magical flag, of course.

Yes, flags are so scary...
I can easily imagine scarier things goblins could have than standards and drums. Like dead babies, or fire, or goblins.

So the issue here is that flags aren't menacing enough? They're cultural, not for shock. People will use actual dead babies if they want to be scary. And besides, here's a story about the flag of Austria, as told by Wikipedia:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

According to legend, the flag was invented by Duke Leopold V of Austria as a consequence of his fighting during the Siege of Acre. After a fierce battle, his white surcoat was completely drenched in blood. When he removed his belt, the cloth underneath was untouched by it, revealing the combination of red-white-red. So taken was he by this singular sight that he adopted the colors and scheme as his banner.

Nope. Flags are lame.

That story wasn't about the flag, it was about the guy's clothes. And the fact that he was drenched in his enemy's blood.
Standards aren't scary, the nations they represent are. Unless, again, they're magical standards. Normal ones? Well, sure, let them know that you're the Monsters of Bloodletting; aside from that, flags don't scare or "shock" much.

To summarized: Flags can be in the game, but wouldn't actually help much in battle.

[assasin]

To summarized: Flags can be in the game, but wouldn't actually help much in battle.

Just done some quick research. According to wikipedia battle standards were mainly used to help organise in bad visibility. If formations are added flags could be used as the centers of formations. While the numbers of dwarves in the game are small, its not like dwarves have any radios or gps, iso if they get separated it doesnt seem that hard to believe a standard may be used to help them locate the rest of the formation. Also, with the introduction of hill dwarves it could mean larger formations are used.

 In ancient rome the loss of one was considered highly dishonorable. I vageuly remember that the revovery of a couple through diplomacy was supposed to be a major propaganda victory.

[GreatWyrmGold]

To summarized: Flags can be in the game, but wouldn't actually help much in battle.

Just done some quick research. According to wikipedia battle standards were mainly used to help organise in bad visibility. If formations are added flags could be used as the centers of formations. While the numbers of dwarves in the game are small, its not like dwarves have any radios or gps, iso if they get separated it doesnt seem that hard to believe a standard may be used to help them locate the rest of the formation. Also, with the introduction of hill dwarves it could mean larger formations are used.

While it's useful with the larger formations, if you have 20 dwarves and they lose sight of one another, either they're the worst navigators ever and need glasses or the fog's so think they're training their Swimming skill.

In ancient rome the loss of one was considered highly dishonorable. I vageuly remember that the revovery of a couple through diplomacy was supposed to be a major propaganda victory.

...Another reason to delay having a standard until you can actually benefit from one.

[Aachen]

What does "morale" even mean, in the context of DF warfare? Is it simply synonymous with happiness? My recent experiences with necromancer ambushes indicate .... suffice it to say: the dwarven military isn't much given to retreat.

[GreatWyrmGold]

...Which is planned to change by the elusive 1.0.

[GoombaGeek]

So this suggestion is bad then because it's too soon, right

[GreatWyrmGold]

Not precisely.

It's "bad" because there is no way a flag could be expected to give the bonuses implied earlier in the thread.

Once we get bigger battles, flags should have effect; before then, we can have them for decor.

[Boomboom]

Dwarves major media appear to be plastic, that is: statues, engravings, carvings etc.  So, I'm not sure how a graphic media like flags or banners would fit into the dwarf culture, but that's just me.  Musical instruments themselves don't seem to have any function right now, but they could be a means of communication in battle I suppose, like to generate happy thoughts to offset potential unhappy thoughts accrued in combat, with a bonus if the dwarf listening favours that instrument.

I could see plaques and such being used as battle standards however, like a brass sign suspended by a chain or two dangling from an overhanging pole and such.  A mobile version could be upheld by the fortress champion or something.  It could generate happy thoughts in passers-by who see it.

[weenog]

Just done some quick research. According to wikipedia battle standards were mainly used to help organise in bad visibility. If formations are added flags could be used as the centers of formations.

Okay.  Implement a flag icon to show where your station order is directing dorfs to go.  Have the popular blind soldiers flatly ignore all station orders.

[KtosoX]

I'd love to see horns as a means for commanders to give orders to soldiers while they are fighting. A position that requires an item instead of a room?
Drums make sense in large groups for the purpose of synchronization I guess? No point in current build.
Banners? Means of organization for large armies, which are not implemented yet.

[assasin]

I'd love to see horns as a means for commanders to give orders to soldiers while they are fighting. A position that requires an item instead of a room?
Drums make sense in large groups for the purpose of synchronization I guess? No point in current build.
Banners? Means of organization for large armies, which are not implemented yet.

Horns don't seem that useful to me. I doubt dwarves would pay much attention to sounds when they're focused on the enemy.  To me runners/messengers/aides de camp/whatever would be a lot more realistic. And possibly more FUN but the delay might be annoying.

Once we get bigger battles, flags should have effect; before then, we can have them for decor.

can't argue with that.