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Author Topic: American Culture and the Decline Washington Foresaw  (Read 4164 times)

Urist_McDrowner

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Re: American Culture and the Decline Washington Foresaw
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2012, 10:03:42 pm »

Insanity and violent sprees aren't just an American problem. But they're magnified by the ready supply of firearms as a multiplier. China and Japan have both have an increase in recent years of crazy stabbing attacks, wherein a guy will go into a school and just start stabbing kids until he's killed. Thing being (as I said in the other thread), it's a hell of a lot harder to mass stab 27 people.

Go carry this argument on in the other thread. And read about Switzerland.
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: American Culture and the Decline Washington Foresaw
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2012, 10:17:19 pm »

Insanity and violent sprees aren't just an American problem. But they're magnified by the ready supply of firearms as a multiplier. China and Japan have both have an increase in recent years of crazy stabbing attacks, wherein a guy will go into a school and just start stabbing kids until he's killed. Thing being (as I said in the other thread), it's a hell of a lot harder to mass stab 27 people.

Go carry this argument on in the other thread. And read about Switzerland.
...Did you just summon Redking to a thread?  Huh, that's new.

Also... is this thread about that school shooting as well?  I posted that whole spiel about the education system thinking that this thread was just about American culture in general, but now I've read through the school shooting thread Redking made and I'm not sure.  Everyone in this thread seemed to be talking about that, even though this thread isn't explicitly about it.
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Frumple

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Re: American Culture and the Decline Washington Foresaw
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2012, 10:20:10 pm »

Summoned RK to the very thread RK started, actually. This is just a general thing based on the OP, the shooting thread is for that incident in particular.
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Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: American Culture and the Decline Washington Foresaw
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2012, 10:23:59 pm »

It's been a long time [Read: College] since I've read parts of George's address. Quite a damn good writer and speaker, especially considering his background. I'm not sure what the discussion in this topic is though. General discussion? I assume about the state of the US society? Sorry; I can't contribute much discussion to the topic at the moment. I do agree things have been changing, but I'd argue things are actually much, much better than they used to be. And I'm talking about in 30 years; so I would say my reference timespan isn't limited. Of course it varies from community to community.
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Thecard

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Re: American Culture and the Decline Washington Foresaw
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2012, 10:34:22 pm »

Yeah, I think that it's gotten a hell of a lot better in a short period of time.  Universal suffrage, lynch mobs are illegal, y'know.  All around good stuff.

But there is a point where you get too sensitive, and that's not much better than apathy.  It's wonderful that you can't legally have prejudice towards a race, religion, or sex, but sometimes those people really are just being dicks.  No one wants to say anything because they are afraid of coming of as a bigot.

I mean, people aren't really going to be considered equal until the laws aren't necessary.  But I have no idea how that is going to be achieved.  There are always going to be discriminating assholes, who find something wrong with people.  (It's so they can cope with having a tiny penis.)
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I think the slaughter part is what made them angry.
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SalmonGod

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Re: American Culture and the Decline Washington Foresaw
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2012, 11:26:41 pm »

1.  Stress.  Stress stress stress.  Insecurities, unrealistic expectations, and lack of personal time.  Driven by profit.  Stress both creates problems (mental and physical) and prevents proper attempts to cope and resolve them.

2.  Sensationalism and fear culture.  Driven by profit.

3.  Education.  Covered quite well by EnigmaticHat.  Driven by class war, which is by extension driven by profit.

4.  Cultural emphasis on competition vs cooperation.  Driven by profit.

5.  Divisive politics.  Leads to irrational hatred.  Driven by #2-4.

6.  Misinformation.  Driven by and deeply intertwined with #2-5.  Leads to all sorts of irrational behavior and hatred and stress.

(Just this morning I saw an image on my facebook spreading panic about flavored crystal meth being fed to children under the name "Strawberry Quick".  I fact checked that shit in literally 2 seconds.  Too bad it already had 27,000+ shares.)

7.  Prejudice.  Driven by #2-6.  Sensationalized fear culture, an education system that discourages critical thinking, competitive mindsets, divisive politics, misinformation, and people who are just too stressed to really give a fuck about much beyond their immediate problems all combine to create completely irrational reactions to other people's problems or differences.  So instead of people thinking "mental illness is a problem we should really do a better job addressing", we get people building up echo chamber mob screaming fests of "SEE LOOK AT THIS WE DONT NEED MORE TOLERANCE FOR CRAZY PEOPLE WE NEED TO LOCK THEM UP AND SHOOT THEM I NEED MORE GUNS TO PROTECT MYSELF I BET OBAMA PLANNED THIS WHOLE THING SO HE COULD BAN GUNS GODDAMN DRUG ADDICTS AND COMMUNIST MUSLIMS EVERYWHERE SHOOTING MY CHILDREN"

Yes, violence, by the numbers, is technically on the decline.  Tolerance is generally on the rise.  It's still about 100x worse than it reasonably should be.
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Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: American Culture and the Decline Washington Foresaw
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2012, 11:28:59 pm »

 ::)

I highly doubt you saw understand how awfully divided and chaotic the 70's were, my friend. According to my analysis of your points, those have always applied to any place in history.

Also: #6 is more of a viewpoint thing of yours, information is much easier to come across. True, verifiable knowledge is much more prominent and easy to access than any time in our history. I don't care if your facebook is full of stupid; the rest of the internet is a tool for knowledge we've never seen before.

Education is something I'll give on, but that's not a product of the times and more of the lack of forethought in the system. People do sure seem like we're heading to an Idiocracy-like future; though, I'll give you that.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 11:35:11 pm by Mictlantecuhtli »
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: American Culture and the Decline Washington Foresaw
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2012, 11:30:52 pm »

The entrenched and self perpetuating two party political system has got to take some of the blame for what those of us outside the USA see as your problems. It is stagnatory, and has built in negative feedback - look how some of the Repbublicans are blaming Romneys defeat on him not being Republican enough. The fact that the 2 parties polarise, with not much in the way of middle ground, compromise or third way/third party to act as a counterweight is a nightmare. You choose one or the other, and then the 2 parties draw a line in the sand and refuse to budge. Little in the way of diplomacy to sway third parties then takes place, and peoples political opinions are encouraged to allign with one of 2 relative extremes. A lack of a range of parties existing in enough strength to offer people a choice of representation over the whole political spectrum is really remarkable in a modern democracy.
[/quote
Most western nations work in a nearly analogous fashion. In fact, I think the us system has  more citizen control than most other western nations. Not that it's not flawed or that there are potential improvement and alternatives, but I think credit is due.
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PanH

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Re: American Culture and the Decline Washington Foresaw
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2012, 11:37:20 pm »

Most western nations work in a nearly analogous fashion. In fact, I think the us system has more citizen control than most other western nations. Not that it's not flawed or that there are potential improvement and alternatives, but I think credit is due.
1) US parties are more right centered. Some right parties outside US could be considered as left wing in the US. US-right is more extreme right.
2) Third parties are present in other countries. They don't get president, but generally, it results in things like compromise between a major party, and "minor" parties. So yes, more compromise, more choice.
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Thecard

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Re: American Culture and the Decline Washington Foresaw
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2012, 11:42:02 pm »

Most western nations work in a nearly analogous fashion. In fact, I think the us system has more citizen control than most other western nations. Not that it's not flawed or that there are potential improvement and alternatives, but I think credit is due.
1) US parties are more right centered. Some right parties outside US could be considered as left wing in the US. US-right is more extreme right.
2) Third parties are present in other countries. They don't get president, but generally, it results in things like compromise between a major party, and "minor" parties. So yes, more compromise, more choice.
Well, if you wanna be all technical an' shit, we got third parties out the ass here.  It's just that they're third right or third left, and never really have their own ideas.  They're really more like lobbyists without all of the money.  Just some of the money.

The media really only pays attention to the two parties, so that doesn't help a lick.
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I think the slaughter part is what made them angry.
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Those hookers aren't getting out any time soon, no matter how many fancy gadgets they have :v

SalmonGod

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Re: American Culture and the Decline Washington Foresaw
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2012, 11:52:30 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I acknowledged that things are getting better.  Just saying that it's an unnecessarily uphill battle.  The internet is an unprecedented tool against the things I listed, but it's not working nearly as well as it could/should be because those other problems I listed are still entrenched by interests (profit) that will remain in action independently of information and continue to influence the kinds of information that people are exposed to and how information is processed by the general culture.  It doesn't matter how much truth is out there if falsity gets the spotlight, and people are discouraged from thinking critically about what the spotlight shows them.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 12:43:36 am by SalmonGod »
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
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Hiiri

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Re: American Culture and the Decline Washington Foresaw
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2012, 12:34:40 am »

@SalmonGod & Mictlantecuhtli:
Perhaps you'd find this interesting...? The Shallows: What the Internet Is Doing to Our Brains
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: American Culture and the Decline Washington Foresaw
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2012, 12:47:05 am »

Relevant to the two party system and why the US has one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo&list=PLqs5ohhass_QZtSkX06DmWOaEaadwmw_D&index=27

(I almost copied the wrong link by accident and sent everyone to a trailer for the movie Pacific Rim)
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Bauglir

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Re: American Culture and the Decline Washington Foresaw
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2012, 01:42:22 am »

Yeah, I think that it's gotten a hell of a lot better in a short period of time.  Universal suffrage, lynch mobs are illegal, y'know.  All around good stuff.

But there is a point where you get too sensitive, and that's not much better than apathy.  It's wonderful that you can't legally have prejudice towards a race, religion, or sex, but sometimes those people really are just being dicks.  No one wants to say anything because they are afraid of coming of as a bigot.

I mean, people aren't really going to be considered equal until the laws aren't necessary.  But I have no idea how that is going to be achieved.  There are always going to be discriminating assholes, who find something wrong with people.  (It's so they can cope with having a tiny penis.)
Two things here - bigotry as a social force, and the law's rules about how to interact with them. These are fairly different, in that the former is about shaming people and so forth, and the latter is much more heavily restricted to preventing discrimination in hiring, pay, etcetera, and doesn't have as large an impact on social behavior as you might think (adding sexual orientation to the laws, for instance, probably wouldn't suddenly end hatred of homosexuals). I'm only gonna deal with the first because it's the only one I have anything at all interesting to say on.

The problem isn't sensitivity, it's a misunderstanding of what sensitivity means. The whole "too politically correct" mindset, and the examples of absurd overreactions that people with that mindset like to point to (the ones that exist, anyway, given the propensity to make them up to fuel a persecution complex), miss the idea that the concept is intended to illustrate. Most of the time it's looked at in terms of "What am I not allowed to do by society", which is backwards - the whole point is that you shouldn't be centering your statements on your own perspective, and should try to consider others'. So thinking about what you're allowed to do is obnoxious in the extreme.

Think of it this way - you wouldn't tell a dead baby joke to a family member who'd just had a miscarriage. I assume, anyway. You probably wouldn't tell that joke elsewhere and make her the subject, either. Why wouldn't you do that? When you understand that, try to extend that to knowing why you probably shouldn't make a "dumb nigger" joke about a black guy, even if he happens to be both objectively stupid and black. Even if you, personally, think the joke is fucking hysterical. I say, "probably", because there are situations in which you can actually do that*. Even if you're a white guy, actually! Almost universally, this is going to be because the context of the joke and the way in which you tell it make clear that you don't intend the literal meaning of the joke, and that absurdity is supposed to be part of the humor. And, you have to realize that if they're offended, you done fucked up no matter how much you thought you made your intent clear, and act accordingly as you would with any mistake. Because in the end, one of the key rules of not being a douchebag is making an effort not to offend people.

Note that I'm only using humor as an example, because it's one of the most common areas where people complain about political correctness. In general, if your words are interpreted as not aiming to hurt people, you'll do fine. What you meant means jack shit in terms of whether you should have said it, whether you should apologize, and so on. It never hurts to clarify, but do it after you try to make amends. Remember, keep your audience in mind before you speak, because you should make every reasonable effort to anticipate offense and avoid it.

*I cannot emphasize enough that this is far from guaranteed. The reason why people sometimes say "Black people can make fun of black people" is because that usually makes clear that they don't really mean the joke if it's part of a comedy routine, even though it's entirely possible for a person to have a racist streak aimed against themselves. It's not because there's any magic context that immunizes you from criticism.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 02:37:23 am by Bauglir »
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Thecard

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Re: American Culture and the Decline Washington Foresaw
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2012, 01:53:27 am »

Yeah, you're right.  I have friends who aren't white (at one point, all of my friends were Asian.  Used to be they were all Mexican, but that was because I was basically in Mexico).  And I'll make a couple of jokes, and they'll make some jokes about white people, and it's okay because we know we don't really think that.  But I'll never use the n-word, even ironically (though I dunno exactly how, I don't want to) because it's derogatory.

What I was trying to say is: Can we really say everyone is considered equal if we have laws that regulate treatment?

Because we kinda can't, since that is preferential treatment, even though it is necessary in some cases.  Not all cases though.  And that last parts the problem, I think.
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I think the slaughter part is what made them angry.
OOC: Dachshundofdoom: This is how the world ends, not with a bang but with goddamn VUVUZELAS.
Those hookers aren't getting out any time soon, no matter how many fancy gadgets they have :v
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