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[Sheb]

No, they were just being roasted by goblins.

[MrWillsauce]

But Thorin didn't abandon his tree to go be stupid in the book, which is what made the situation tense enough for the party not to thank the eagles. Any way, you're right; they should have at least talked to the eagles.

[Sheb]

Don't they do that AFTER being saved in the book?

[Heron TSG]

I thought so, I'll dig up my copy and find out. But yes, Gwaihir the Windlord is king of deus ex machina. Saving hobbits and dwarves from burning trees, saving wizards from towers, saving hobbits from burning rock... hell, his ancestor Thorondor saved Fingolfin's body from freaking Morgoth. It's what they do.

[Scoops Novel]

Sig worthy.

[SalmonGod]

hell, his ancestor Thorondor saved Fingolfin's body from freaking Morgoth. It's what they do.

Took him by surprise by swooping down out of the sky and clawing at his eyes, stunning and blinding him long enough to carry the body away.  For being so brief and sparsely described, Fingolfin's duel with Morgoth still manages to be one of the most exciting moments in Tolkien's work.  I'm sure Blind Guardian has a lot to do with that, since this song plays in my head every time I think about it.  It's a shame they didn't include another verse to show how much of a fight Fingolfin put up, leaving Morgoth with a permanent limp.  The significance of that, for those who don't know the Silmarillion, is Morgoth was a Valar, which is basically a god of the highest order and participant in the creation of the world.  Sauron, for all the fuss over him in LotR, was merely Morgoth's lieutenant.  Fingolfin was just an elf.

[Heron TSG]

Yeah, it really is my favorite part of the Silmarillion, bar none. And one of the main reasons I'd like to see the book in film form. Beren and Luthien are cool and all, but they didn't ride to certain death just to s(p/m)ite the ultimate evil.

this song

Is freakin' great. I really need to listen to the rest of their 'Middle-Earth' album. They just have so much gorram music, I haven't gotten around to it yet. 

[woose1]

You guys are nerds. I liked the Hobbit. I also like the Azog dude as a stand-in for talking wolves. I even liked Radagast. THERE, I SAID IT

[SalmonGod]

I think the whole story of Turin's life is my favorite of Tolkien's works.  I think it would translate to film really well, actually... but the thought of Peter Jackson or Hollywood in general having anything to do with it gets me all angsty.  I just don't trust them not to make it feel like modern pop culture fantasy.  Someone like R.A. Salvatore is a better fit for the type of movies they want to make.  I want to see Tolkien adaptations that retain his low-key, slower-paced, old-fashioned style.

And Nightfall in Middle-Earth is one of my favorite albums.  It's one of those rare ones that's actually worth listening to from beginning to end, in order, in one good listening session.

[Zarat]

Well, at least according to book

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

near the end, I recall Gandalf explaining where he'd been during all of the Mirkwood and reclaiming the Mountain stuff, and saying that he was dealing with a Necromancer (or maybe it was imprisoned in the Necromancer's dungeons?) and that he escaped and the Necromancer was defeated. So presumably this defeat at the hands of Gandalf/whoever helped him in there is what led to the change from humanoid necromancer form to giant flaming eye form.

Correct me on any details I got wrong, I haven't read The Hobbit for quite a while, and I may be misremembering some stuff.  I really need to read that again...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Yeah, that's exactly what the book says, except that I believe it's also canon that he lost his shapechanging ability and so the eye thing would've been his form ever since he managed to regain form of any kind after the Ring was taken. In the novel, Sauron is never directly interacted with except through the Palantiri, which makes it less of an issue because there's no information to conflict with anything.

My money is on the Necromancer being the Witch-king, though. In the movie, I mean. Baseless speculation, but still.

Sauron did not lose his ability to shapeshift. After the Downfall of Numenor, he lost the ability to take fair forms - but that's all he lost.

Sauron decidedly did have a humanoid form in the LotR book - several characters make reference to it. Gollum, for example, who was tortured by Sauron, notes that Sauron has only four fingers on one hand.

The whole flaming eye thing was artistic license on the part of PJ.

The Witch-King burial thing is also artistic license. He never died. After the fall of Angmar, Earnur and Glorfindel confronted him, but he fled and Glorfindel forbade pursuit. Glorfindel is the one who prophecies it would not be by the hand of a man the Witch-King would fall.

Indeed, claiming the Witch-King died actually breaks a lot, because immediately after that, he went back to Mordor and worked on re-establishing Sauron's empire, and shortly thereafter laid a trap for Earnur and presumably killed him. After which the Stewards ruled Gondor, waiting for Earnur to return. The Witch-King and the other Ringwraiths also took over Minas Ithil and turned it into Minas Morgul and finished off what was left of Osgiliath during that time.

[PanH]

I'm not sure, but doesn' the death of the Witch King in the movie refers to the defeat of Sauron (the first one) ? Because the nine Nazgūl disappeared/died at that point (because Sauron was defeated).
He reappeared (along with the other Nazgūls) only when Sauron came back as the Necromancer, not before.

If the only change is disappeared to dead, and the burial of the corpse, that doesn't seem so breaking.

[Zarat]

I'm not sure, but doesn' the death of the Witch King in the movie refers to the defeat of Sauron (the first one) ? Because the nine Nazgūl disappeared/died at that point (because Sauron was defeated).
He reappeared (along with the other Nazgūls) only when Sauron came back as the Necromancer, not before.

If the only change is disappeared to dead, and the burial of the corpse, that doesn't seem so breaking.

After the end of the First Age, Sauron "died" twice.

In the first, he conquered essentially all of Middle-Earth, until the Numenoreans got irate that some uppity Maia was claiming the lordship of men and Middle-Earth and landed a massive fleet which all Sauron's armies fled from and Sauron himself surrendered to. Sauron was taken prisoner and drowned in Numenor when the Valar destroyed them for taking Sauron's counsel. I'm not aware of any references to the Ringwraiths yet - they probably still looked like mortal men - but they probably stayed in charge of Mordor at this time. This is also when Sauron lost his ability to shapeshift into a fair form.

Sauron then returned to Mordor and waged war on Middle-Earth again. The Numenorean survivors (Gondor and Arnor) and the Elves waged war against him in the Last Alliance. He died here too. The Ringwraiths disappeared here too, but crucially, they came back and were very active. The Witch-King of Angmar is called such because during this time, he founded the realm of Angmar and destroyed Arnor. The Hobbit is pretty clearly referring to the Witch-King dying after that, which doesn't make any sense whatever and would disrupt the entire timeline (kings would still rule Gondor, Minas Morgul would still be Minas Ithil) even in the context of the movie, since...what the heck would the Witch-King mean in LotR that he couldn't be killed/fall by the hand of the man when he would have already been killed by one?

[sneakey pete]

You guys are nerds.

Well obviously.
And with that i'm leaving this topic, since people can't seem to spoiler anything. Dam Australian release date. 

[PanH]

The Ringwraiths disappeared here too, but crucially, they came back and were very active.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

 After Sauron came back in the form of the Necromencer. Which is centuries before Bilbo (the first time Gandalf was sent to Dol Guldur was 4 centuries before the Hobbit, but I can't manage to find exactly when the first signs of "Mirk"wood appeared).

:
Sauron fist "re formed" in Dol Guldur, which wasn't Mirkwood yet. Then, corruption, signs of evil, etc.
Gandalf was sent for the first time there, and Sauron fleed for 400 years. He then came back again in Dol Guldur.

Gandalf went again in Dol Guldur, and found out it was Sauron. And an assault was made against Dol Guldur the same year Biblo found the ring.

The Nazgūl can't exist without Sauron.

[lemon10]

Spoiler: All the information I could find on Sauron/Necromancer on wikipedia (click to show/hide)

Around the year 1050,[37] a shadow of fear fell on the forest later called Mirkwood. As would later become known, this was the first sign of Sauron's remanifestation, but for many years he was not recognized. He was known (as in The Hobbit) as the Necromancer. He established a stronghold called Dol Guldur, "Hill of Sorcery", in the southern part of the forest not far from Lórien.

Shortly after the shadow fell upon the forest, the Valar sent five Maiar to oppose this growing power. They took the form of Wizards, the most prominent being Gandalf and Saruman. By about 1100, "the Wise" (the Wizards and the chief Elves) became aware that an evil power had made a stronghold at Dol Guldur. Initially it was assumed that this was one of the Nazgūl rather than Sauron himself. About the year 1300, the Nazgūl did indeed reappear. In the ensuing centuries, the chief of the Nazgūl, the Witch-king of Angmar, repeatedly attacked the northern realm of Arnor, first in 1409 and finally overrunning and effectively destroying the realm in 1974. Though driven from the north in the following year by the Elves and forces from Gondor, the Witch-king retreated to Mordor and gathered the Nazgūl there. In 2000, the Nazgūl issued from Mordor to besiege the city of Minas Ithil in the mountains bordering Mordor. The city fell in 2002, and became known as Minas Morgul. With the city the Nazgūl also captured the palantķr of Minas Ithil, one of the seven seeing stones that Elendil's people had brought with them from Nśmenor at the eve of the Downfall.

In this same period, the Dwarf kingdom in Moria was destroyed by a Balrog, who slew King Durin VI and his son Nįin I and drove the dwarves away. In the centuries that followed dragons attacked other settlements of dwarves in the north. (Whether Sauron had any part in these attacks on the Dwarves is unknown.) In this time many of the surviving Noldorin Elves became weary of Middle-earth and departed for Valinor.

As the power of Dol Guldur grew, the Wise came to suspect that the controlling force behind the Witch-king and the other Nazgūl was indeed their original master, Sauron. In 2063, Gandalf went to Dol Guldur and made the first attempt to learn the truth, but Sauron retreated and hid in the East. It would be almost 400 years before he returned to his stronghold in Mirkwood, and his identity remained undetermined.

Sauron finally reappeared with increased strength in 2460. About the same time, the long-lost Ruling Ring was finally recovered from the River Anduin, found by a Stoor Hobbit[38] named Déagol. Déagol's friend and relative[39] Sméagol coveted the Ring and killed Déagol to get it, and was eventually corrupted by it, becoming the creature Gollum. Banished by his family, he took the Ring, which he called his "Precious", and hid in the Misty Mountains.

In 2850, Gandalf made a second attempt to spy out Dol Guldur. Stealing into the stronghold, he was finally able to confirm the identity of its lord,[40] later reporting to the White Council of Elves and Wizards that Sauron had returned. Saruman dissuaded the Council from acting against Sauron, hoping thereby to acquire the One Ring for himself.

Eventually, the Wise put forth their might and drove Sauron from Mirkwood in 2941. During the White Council's delay he had, however, prepared his next move, and was willing to abandon Dol Guldur.

Just before Sauron fled Dol Guldur, the hobbit Bilbo Baggins, on an improbable adventure with a party of Dwarves, stumbled across the Ring deep within the Misty Mountains. After his quest was over, Bilbo brought the Ring back to Hobbiton in the Shire. Decades later, he passed it on to his heir, Frodo.

By then, Sauron's power had recovered to the point that he was able to extend his will over Middle-earth. The Eye of Sauron, as his attention and force of will was perceived, became a symbol of oppression and fear. Following his expulsion from Dol Guldur, he returned to Mordor in 2942, openly declared himself nine years later, and started raising Barad-dūr anew. In preparation for a final war against Men and Elves, he bred armies of monstrous Orcs, the Uruk-hai.