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Author Topic: The Hobbit  (Read 55764 times)

mainiac

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Re: The Hobbit
« Reply #360 on: December 16, 2013, 08:27:00 am »

I didn't really have a problem with the derivations from the source material, they weren't as bad as in the first movie.  I had some serious issues with the pacing and choices though.  It almost feels more action dominated then the LOTR trilogy which is just wrong.  I got the distinct impression that they were only in the elvish prison for like a day or two, which makes the whole Tauriel/Kili romance plot wierd.
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MorleyDev

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Re: The Hobbit
« Reply #361 on: December 16, 2013, 12:39:58 pm »

Not yet seen the movie yet, just getting a feel for if it's something I should go to the cinema to see or just wait for the DVD release. But just felt I wanted to chime in: Personally I'm of the opinion that adaptations faithfulness is more about theme, tone and message than specific events. Different things work best in different mediums, and you often can't do a direct adaptation because it will be plain bad. What works in writing often doesn't work in cinema. They can change scenes, the important thing is they either keep the tone and feel and message of the work the same.

My big complaint about the V for Vendetta adaptation isn't that they changed the story events, but that they changed and flat out bastardised the tone and meaning behind the story, turning it into "An Hero brings down Not-Hitler because he's evil because standard western ideals".

The Hobbit movies are odd since they're an adaptation of two sources, the original book and the background events Tolkein wrote about elsewhere. So I almost view the scenes with Bilbo and the scenes without Bilbo as being two different movies as far as adaptation goes. It's the biggest problem I can see the movies facing, since those different tones create a bit of whiplash.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 12:43:30 pm by MorleyDev »
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Bauglir

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Re: The Hobbit
« Reply #362 on: December 16, 2013, 01:54:21 pm »

Personally I'm of the opinion that adaptations faithfulness is more about theme, tone and message than specific events. Different things work best in different mediums, and you often can't do a direct adaptation because it will be plain bad. What works in writing often doesn't work in cinema. They can change scenes, the important thing is they either keep the tone and feel and message of the work the same.
This is why I enjoyed the first movie. They did make some weird mistakes and heavy-handed LotR tie-ins, but I felt like they did do a good job of conveying the themes and tone.
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WillowLuman

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Re: The Hobbit
« Reply #363 on: December 16, 2013, 02:02:35 pm »

This time they went for the straight up serious tone, and gave a lot of Bilbo's moments to the Dwarves. As in, he tricks the spiders, but the dwarves just kill them all once freed. He taunts Smaug, but the Dwarves have to come in and bail him out. He gets them out of jail and into barrels, but that wouldn't have worked without the intervention of Orcs and they wouldn't have gotten out of it without copious Dwarven violence.
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Bauglir

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Re: The Hobbit
« Reply #364 on: December 16, 2013, 02:28:25 pm »

Well, shit.

I mean, I'm still going to see it. But that doesn't sound good.
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

WillowLuman

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Re: The Hobbit
« Reply #365 on: December 16, 2013, 02:33:27 pm »

It's worth seeing in theaters for Smaug alone, mind you. He is just plain awesome.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 03:54:17 pm by HugoLuman »
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Liber celi

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Re: The Hobbit
« Reply #366 on: December 16, 2013, 03:41:55 pm »

Well, I don't think I actually want to discuss that movie, but I'll casually place my opinions here because I can.

Smaug was great, the spiders were good, Bard was good, a few of the action scenes were very good. I actually liked the silly and ridicoulous stuff(like... doing a barrel roll *badum-tish*) because it wasn't as painfully serious as most to all characters and dialogues. Bolg, Generic Evil Orcmaster #2 got a design far less annoying and cheap-looking than Generic Evil Orcmaster#1, Azog. The necromancer being dependant on Azog the Curd-Cheese made me chuckle. The terrible overblown pathos of a few scenes made most of the cinema laugh, so it wasn't a humorless film at all, really.

The romance(???) crudely hammered into it barely hurt my sensitive feelings, the ninja roof orcs were some good cannon fodder for Jackson's immense archery fetish, the non-existing characterisation for most dwarves is a property of the book and was re-established in the first movie already, Thorin's aggressive dim-wittedness was almost dwarfy, but he just is too young and looks far too much like your generic dunedain. Altogether I feel unable to take him serious as a leader of dwarves.

Gandalf facing Azog and being forced to retreat may fit their general powerlevel, but it kinda felt like the creators stroking their hairless albino orc. Uh. You know what I meant. You do remember what Gandalf did to the Great-Orc (who was superior to Azog in every conceivable way)? But then again, the necromancer subplot was OK. I like watching Gandalf doing wizardly things. Sauron himself was a bit too flashy, I guess, not so much a shadow as a CLOUD OF FAT BLACK PARTICLES turning into a FLAMING EYEPERSON . Well, alright.

They totally butchered Beorn. They, like, hinted at one of the most magical parts of the book, but all we got were some big bees, Batman growling about Azog being Evil (yes, the german voice of Beorn was Nolan's Batman), no humor and a tiny bit of action. I think this is part of the problem I got with this movie, which I articulated about the first too:

They really tried to make an epic fantasy film like LoTR, with lots of bloodshed, pathos and symbolism, but they chose a children's book plot.

The hobbit movie trilogy is not a children's movie. It isn't an epic fantasy, because talking about the bigger picture a lot with a meaningful voice while staring intently does not make an epos. It isn't a good action movie, because of the plot's pacing. It isn't a love story, elf wenches or not. It isn't a social commentary, Proto-Wormtongue or not.  It is not even really Bilbo's story. It is barely anything at all.

It didn't even hurt.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 03:47:35 pm by Liber celi »
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mainiac

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Re: The Hobbit
« Reply #367 on: December 16, 2013, 04:08:43 pm »

I would say the most puzzling aspect of all this is that it's not bilbo's story.  Bilbo almost seems like an afterthought at times.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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SalmonGod

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Re: The Hobbit
« Reply #368 on: December 16, 2013, 09:15:51 pm »

Had a big talk with my family (who has seen it) about all the stuff they changed.

Going to be blunt here... it sounds absolutely retarded... like full-on shitting all over the originals... the stuff they described to me made absolutely no sense from any angle of adaptation, except excuses for cheap hollywood thrills and giving people who are fans of the original movie trilogy and not the books more of the same...  I went through every major plot point with them, and every single one completely discarded the tone and core defining elements of the source material.
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LeoLeonardoIII

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Re: The Hobbit
« Reply #369 on: December 17, 2013, 03:04:18 pm »

OK this whole thread is taking about the movie so I won't bother with spoiler tags.

TL;DR: I absolutely hated the movie. If it weren't branded The Hobbit, if it were just some D&D movie or generic fantasy, I might have enjoyed it. But it's not The Hobbit, and it's not even a hobbit movie. And in addition to all that, there are so many completely stupid parts you'd knock yourself out with all the facepalming.

1: Both movies so far are probably heavily influenced by critical complaints about Jackson's LotR movies: people hated all the walking. So Jackson replaced all the traveling scenes with short montages and actioned everything up.

2: He's also obviously trying to do LotR 2 instead of The Hobbit, which had a completely different tone. This is why there are so many tie-ins to the LotR movies. Instead of in The Hobbit where we get a few sentences from Gandalf about handling some business with the Necromancer south of Mirkwood, we get an entire B-plot competing with our A-plot of the party.

1 and 2 are why we have the albino orc who was merely a footnote in the book. Jackson needs to tie in Sauron using this guy as a minion, and having the party be chased by an antagonist makes the film more actiony than it was when the party was just driven by individual obstacles and a time limit to arrive at the Lonely Mountain in time for the magic door to open.

3: Jackson felt it was important to give characterization and individuality to all the dwarves, even though in the book most of the dwarves had nothing but a name, description of his hood, and a musical instrument - and that was in the first chapter! This increased focus on the dwarves means less focus on the hobbit, making it less a hobbit movie and more a dwarf movie. Jackson even stole accomplishments from Bilbo and gave them to other characters! This makes the hobbit less of a protagonist and more of a useful sidekick.

Specific scene criticism:

Spoiler: Intro and Beorn (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Mirkwood (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Wood Elves (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Lake Town (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Secret Door (click to show/hide)

//

I've skipped over all the B-plot stuff with Gandalf and Radagast the Shit-Headed. It's all just unnecessary tie-in to LotR and has absolutely no impact on the A-plot. In fact, I'm thinking someone will end up editing out the B-plot of all three movies, combining them into one 2.5-hour film, and will receive lavish praise and BJs forever.

Spoiler: Surfing (click to show/hide)


Spoiler: Dat Hoard (click to show/hide)
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WillowLuman

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Re: The Hobbit
« Reply #370 on: December 17, 2013, 03:49:39 pm »

I'd argue about the hoard. Having absolutely ludicrous amounts of gold does kind of reinforce the idea of a massive treasure that everyone wants a piece of. And I do remember the book describing Bilbo climbing over stupendous piles for a long time before finding the Arkenstone.
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nenjin

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Re: The Hobbit
« Reply #371 on: December 17, 2013, 03:50:39 pm »

Quote
Speaking of, why are these orcs so badass? Why is everyone so badass?

This has been my gripe since the 2nd LotR movie. Everyone is a badass. Especially the elves. All the elves are ninjas. They all dual wield, have melee-combat shooting proficiency and carry ridiculously ornate and completely impratical weaponry.

It pissed me off in LotR when Arwen, a c-list character at best, suddenly becomes a main character who also happens to be Legolas with tits.

So this doesn't surprise me at all. The movies aren't being made for adults. They're being made for 14 year old males who will fap about dualwielding elven bow babes into their late 20s, and young females who have just seen The Hunger Games and think bows are the cooliest gender-appropriate weapon ever.

I mean, it's really the same shit as the Star Wars prequels. If Lightsaber = Cool, then Lightsaber x2 = Cool x3! It's the same kind of junk marketing that defines most AAA blockbusters.

Quote
Meele Archery Shennanigans/Surfing

Same story here. This is why I wrote off all Peter Jackson Tolkien works. They're all focused on the spectacle of the CGI and the fight choreography. It's basically like a D&D game minus everything that doesn't have to do with combat and GM exposition.
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WillowLuman

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Re: The Hobbit
« Reply #372 on: December 17, 2013, 04:05:47 pm »

To be fair, Arwen never actually got into any fights in the movies. Not one. At some point in the production she might have, but they scrapped it.

I actually like the LoTR movies. They have several good character moments, treat their hobbits properly, and more often than not take the correct tone and suitably represent the scale of the story. I liked the beginning of "An Unexpected Journey," but from then onwards. it's been a bit meh.

At least we got a few awesome villain performances, like the Great Goblin and Smaug. Best parts of this trilogy so far. Gollum was great, too.
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nenjin

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Re: The Hobbit
« Reply #373 on: December 17, 2013, 04:17:15 pm »

To be even more fair, she never even held a weapon in the books.



It's akin to a "War Hero" holding a gun they've never shot.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 04:18:58 pm by nenjin »
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Bauglir

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Re: The Hobbit
« Reply #374 on: December 18, 2013, 12:48:13 am »

Blech. The best part of the first movie was the degree to which they played up how badass the Dwarves thought they were, and contrasted it with how badass they weren't. It didn't hit me till Thorin got slammed down by Azog, but all their fight scenes were complete failures, desperate escapes, or victory by luck or somebody more skilled than they. Abandoning that is abandoning the core part of the book's tone that they got right - that Big Damn Heroes aren't always the important characters, and that it's okay not to be one.

Then again, everyone complained about this in the first movie, too, so I'll need to watch this one. There's a lot of people who want to dislike these.
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.
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