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Author Topic: Which martial art is best?  (Read 17443 times)

SalmonGod

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Re: Which martial art is best?
« Reply #75 on: December 12, 2012, 04:12:39 am »

Also complicated, but speaking from my own experience, I think we need to distinguish "grappling" in the sense of joint  and/or pressure point manipulation, from "throwing" techniques in the sense of smashing your opponent into the ground, and from "wrestling" in the sense of both parties on the ground attempting to render one another prone.

I just meant in the sense of removing someone's ability to swing something at you/gaining control of the limb holding the weapon.  I think a couple people have asked "what's the best martial art against someone with a weapon when you're unarmed."  My answer is that if you're forced into that situation where you absolutely have to fight and there's nothing else you can make use of, the best answer is to disable the other person's advantage.

Joint manipulation is a popular thing, but...in my opinion, it is highly over rated. An awful lot of joint manipulation techniques can be completely avoided just by rotating an arm or shifting your weight by a tiny amount.

Since wrestling is all about this, I can tell you that it's more skill than any random set of factors like wrist size.  If any inexperienced person tries to grab your wrist, you really can just twist right out of it super easily.  It's not going to work as easily on someone who has practice holding on to someone trying to break that grip.  Strength is a large factor, but so is technique.  I wouldn't count in it in a real fight, but I have gained control of people much larger and stronger than me.

There are also a significant number of people on whom pressure point techniques just flat out don't work. They either don't have the nerves they're supposed to, or they've grown enough muscle over them that it's impractical to get to them.

This reminds me of a hilarious wrestling match I once had.  I have unusually flexible arms.  I can make an X behind my back to just past the elbow before it really starts to hurt, and could touch my shoulders together in front of me when I was younger.  When my turn came to start the round on bottom, my opponent tried to force me down onto my chest by wrenching my arms behind me as hard as he could.  I laughed pretty hard when watching a video of the match later, because he did this for like 10-15 seconds and twisted my arm very far back without any reaction from me.  When he finally gave up on that approach, he actually threw his hands up in the air in a confused/exasperated gesture, which is when I was finally able to escape.

But anyway, I have almost no experience in real fights and zero in martial arts, so I acknowledge your expert opinion over mine on anything outside of pure wrestling.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 04:19:04 am by SalmonGod »
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Neonivek

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Re: Which martial art is best?
« Reply #76 on: December 12, 2012, 04:17:03 am »

If someone has a lot of flexibility you can use that against them by forcing their arms off.

That would have, of course, disqualified him.

Mind you that doesn't count in all cases... it counts certainly on me, I have very weak joints but it does allow me to be more flexible then most (I cannot be beaten at Mercy because of it. It is physically impossible)

One time someone twisted my arm behind my back so much that I nearly fainted not because it was painful but because it actually managed to constrict the blood flow in my entire body. That was a bit scary and even today I don't know how the physics of that worked. I am sure he managed to dislocate my entire arm in the process though.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 04:22:14 am by Neonivek »
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LordBucket

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Re: Which martial art is best?
« Reply #77 on: December 12, 2012, 04:22:52 am »

Wrestling while often considered supperior does have a attribute issue that many other martial arts don't have.

Well, wrestling on its own has some of the same problem that karate on its own has. If you put a karate practitioner on his back, he has problems. But wrestling is basically a non-combat sport. There are holds that you might use that could potentially get you seriously hurt if you tried them in a fight...because it's understood in wrestling that you don't punch each other. It does no good to put your opponent in a hold, thinking you've won...only to have them elbowing you in the kidneys because your hold isn't intended to stop them from doing that because it's against the rules.

Karate might only work well if you're able to stay upright, but a lot of wrestling moves only work well if your opponent isn't allowed to punch you in the face.

Quote
While people who are smaller or weaker always have a disadvantage no matter what martial
art they chose to do, you always want to do the moves that benefit you the most.

...yeah, this is something that a lot of martial artists don't like to talk ahout. Having more experience and training is very helpful, but just something simple like being 50 pounds heavier and 4 inches taller can make a massive difference in a fight. And there's nothing stopping the guy with 50 pounds and four inches on you from doing training too.

Like I said earlier, if the goal is to become a competent fighter, I would generally put more faith in physical training than martial arts training.  Doing bagwork is more beneficial than punching and kicking drills. Lifting weights is more beneficial than kata. A lot of the benefit people get from martial arts training isn't the fact that they're learning techniques so much as that the training simply makes their body tougher. When you spend a couple hours a week being slammed into the ground and having black belts kick you in the face...the average guy's punch just doesn't hurt very much.

SalmonGod

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Re: Which martial art is best?
« Reply #78 on: December 12, 2012, 04:25:29 am »

Flexible doesn't necessarily mean weak, though.  The guy couldn't wrench me to the point of giving because I was resisting, and he didn't have the leverage to force me past the point of tolerance, which just happened to be really far.
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Neonivek

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Re: Which martial art is best?
« Reply #79 on: December 12, 2012, 04:30:09 am »

Flexible doesn't necessarily mean weak, though.  The guy couldn't wrench me to the point of giving because I was resisting, and he didn't have the leverage to force me past the point of tolerance, which just happened to be really far.

I was speaking more in terms of dislocating your limbs or ripping them out of the socket.
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Heron TSG

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Re: Which martial art is best?
« Reply #80 on: December 12, 2012, 04:34:08 am »

While people who are smaller or weaker always have a disadvantage no matter what martial
art they chose to do, you always want to do the moves that benefit you the most.
...yeah, this is something that a lot of martial artists don't like to talk ahout. Having more experience and training is very helpful, but just something simple like being 50 pounds heavier and 4 inches taller can make a massive difference in a fight. And there's nothing stopping the guy with 50 pounds and four inches on you from doing training too.
I can vouch for that. One day a couple friends and I decided to join my MMA-practicing friend for a few sparring rounds. Despite not having any training at all and being one of the skinniest people I know, I was able to stall out the MMA guy just by being flexible and moving around a lot. He was my height and only 160 pounds to my 120, so the disadvantage wasn't all too much. He got tired, and I couldn't do anything to pin him back, so we called it a draw. Then I fought another guy who's a foot taller than me and at least twice my weight. Not even a chance. Went straight at him, bounced off. He just kinda fell on me and it was over pretty fast. He hadn't done anything, really, but I couldn't physically lift his dead weight off of me. If we both knew judo, it probably would have gone the same way. I mean, technically speaking, I can run faster than him and could have avoided the fight entirely, but in a fight where the goal is to knock the other person over and make them tap out, being unable to do significant harm is a serious problem.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Which martial art is best?
« Reply #81 on: December 12, 2012, 04:36:26 am »

Flexible doesn't necessarily mean weak, though.  The guy couldn't wrench me to the point of giving because I was resisting, and he didn't have the leverage to force me past the point of tolerance, which just happened to be really far.

I was speaking more in terms of dislocating your limbs or ripping them out of the socket.

Yeah, I know what you mean... I'm just saying that I don't think being flexible puts you in greater danger of this.

I do think that if I were ever in a real fight with the real intention of hurting the other person, that this is probably what I would go for.  Take down, gain control of limb, and reverse limb, dwarven wrestling-style.
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DJ

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Re: Which martial art is best?
« Reply #82 on: December 12, 2012, 04:37:59 am »

The problem with wrestling and any other ground-based styles is that they don't work if there's multiple participants in the fight. And in a bar fight, which is the most likely fight situation you'll find yourself in, multiple participants is the norm. Going to the ground in these situations is just an invitation for a good hard kick to your kidneys.
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Neonivek

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Re: Which martial art is best?
« Reply #83 on: December 12, 2012, 04:42:20 am »

Also though they NEVER tell you this the most important training in martial arts is this!

Track and Field and Sprinting

No joke.

The best way to use a martial art, if you have to use it, is to simply make your opponent flinch or fall and run away.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Which martial art is best?
« Reply #84 on: December 12, 2012, 04:48:02 am »

I can vouch for that. One day a couple friends and I decided to join my MMA-practicing friend for a few sparring rounds. Despite not having any training at all and being one of the skinniest people I know, I was able to stall out the MMA guy just by being flexible and moving around a lot. He was my height and only 160 pounds to my 120, so the disadvantage wasn't all too much. He got tired, and I couldn't do anything to pin him back, so we called it a draw. Then I fought another guy who's a foot taller than me and at least twice my weight. Not even a chance. Went straight at him, bounced off. He just kinda fell on me and it was over pretty fast. He hadn't done anything, really, but I couldn't physically lift his dead weight off of me. If we both knew judo, it probably would have gone the same way. I mean, technically speaking, I can run faster than him and could have avoided the fight entirely, but in a fight where the goal is to knock the other person over and make them tap out, being unable to do significant harm is a serious problem.

I've pinned people more than twice my weight.  People who were really trying.  I also wrestled the 182 weight class (which includes people up to 194 lbs, IIRC) my senior year, when I never weighed more than 161, and went undefeated.  Now if any of these people were actually equal to or better than me, their weight advantage would do me in, but I also imagine that strength plays an even larger part in greco-roman wrestling than it does in a straight fight.
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Scoops Novel

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Re: Which martial art is best?
« Reply #85 on: December 12, 2012, 06:33:17 am »

On the note of bar fights, i understand there's a technique to breaking bottles.
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DJ

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Re: Which martial art is best?
« Reply #86 on: December 12, 2012, 06:38:39 am »

There must be, because when I try it more often than not the bottle just bounces off the wall, table or whatever I'm breaking it against and the vibrations make me lose my grip on it. Then again, maybe I just need to stop using Coke bottles :P

Anyway, I think we're forgetting an important consideration in this discussion: how would it look in court? Eye gouging, larynx crushing etc. may be very effective, but they may also upgrade your charges to attempted murder. You need the witnesses to say you were trying to incapacitate rather than kill. So yeah, the best style would be one that inflicts the most pain while looking the least aggressive, and not causing any serious lasting injuries. Do any martial arts fit this bill?
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RedKing

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Re: Which martial art is best?
« Reply #87 on: December 12, 2012, 09:05:53 am »

I'm gonna say the best martial art is the art of dropping a load of high-explosive ordnance on target from several thousand feet up.

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Re: Which martial art is best?
« Reply #88 on: December 12, 2012, 09:08:40 am »

I'd say, without a huge amount of experience myself, that the most important thing is to get over the completely reasonable fear of being punched in the face. Do classes where people spar at a fairly intense level fairly early on, such as good boxing, kickboxing, Muay Thai or MMA gyms. Getting hit hard in the face hurts, it can make you groggy, and it will often lead to an adrenaline surge that sets your fighting style "angry flailing". You can sort of get used to it though and it should only take 3-6 months, in which time you should learn to throw a decent punch as well.

Learning a bit of Judo or BJJ style grappling, or wrestling, is also good in the short term. You can pick some basic ideas of positioning and reversals that will make it possible to hold your own on the ground in 3-6 months again. I don't think joint locks are all that useful to worry about but the rear naked choke is just such an easy thing to nail if you can get onto someone's back that it's worth the effort to practice.
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hawkeye_de

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Re: Which martial art is best?
« Reply #89 on: December 12, 2012, 01:37:33 pm »

While people who are smaller or weaker always have a disadvantage no matter what martial
art they chose to do, you always want to do the moves that benefit you the most.
...yeah, this is something that a lot of martial artists don't like to talk ahout. Having more experience and training is very helpful, but just something simple like being 50 pounds heavier and 4 inches taller can make a massive difference in a fight. And there's nothing stopping the guy with 50 pounds and four inches on you from doing training too.
I can vouch for that. One day a couple friends and I decided to join my MMA-practicing friend for a few sparring rounds. Despite not having any training at all and being one of the skinniest people I know, I was able to stall out the MMA guy just by being flexible and moving around a lot. He was my height and only 160 pounds to my 120, so the disadvantage wasn't all too much. He got tired, and I couldn't do anything to pin him back, so we called it a draw. Then I fought another guy who's a foot taller than me and at least twice my weight. Not even a chance. Went straight at him, bounced off. He just kinda fell on me and it was over pretty fast. He hadn't done anything, really, but I couldn't physically lift his dead weight off of me. If we both knew judo, it probably would have gone the same way. I mean, technically speaking, I can run faster than him and could have avoided the fight entirely, but in a fight where the goal is to knock the other person over and make them tap out, being unable to do significant harm is a serious problem.

I've done judo for one year and wrestled on the ground once with a buddy privately, who has a brown belt and has a lot of experience in judo competitions. He almost won every round - although he was a little weaker and weighed 10 pounds less than me. He usually pinned me on the ground, so that I could do nothing at all, very embarrassing ;)

It does not so matter if you do martial arts but if you are really good in it and have experience in competitions and not only go to training.


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