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[Scoops Novel]

Incidentally, do most thugs have any experience of their own? I'm not expecting it to be universal, but the more experienced/smarter ones I'd expect it from.

[DJ]

I'd expect them to, since they're obviously violent people and violent people tend to get into fights a lot more often than your average Joe.

[Scoops Novel]

Actually, does anyone know about the vetting procedures of the more succesful gangs? I know a little about the triads, but not the others, and it would be interesting to know if psychological profiling came into it.

[LordBucket]

when I do really epic high kicks I have an issue with actually picking myself
off the ground. It is actually hard to keep balance when you do that

Keep your heel on the ground. Don't go up on your toes.

all the knife defence techniques I've seen assume the other guy is trying to stab you.

Most "self defense techniques" assume the attacker is incompetent. That they'll step in with their right leg and punch/stab/whatever then stop and not do anything.

I think that these techniques are generally not native to the styles that teach them, but enough people want "self defense" to be part of their martial arts classes that schools teach these techniques to accommodate them. Even though an awful lot of them are not particularly useful, it keeps the soccer moms happy and the school gets more business.

there's also pretty good odds of getting a severed tendon,
which can render your arm pretty much useless.

To be fair, that's better than the punctured lung that might result from them stabbing you in the chest.

[Maldevious]

Most "self defense techniques" assume the attacker is incompetent. That they'll step in with their right leg and punch/stab/whatever then stop and not do anything.

I think that these techniques are generally not native to the styles that teach them, but enough people want "self defense" to be part of their martial arts classes that schools teach these techniques to accommodate them. Even though an awful lot of them are not particularly useful, it keeps the soccer moms happy and the school gets more business.

To your first point, you have to start teaching somewhere. While you can always say, "Well what if the attacker does X?" you need to find a point to cut that off when first teaching a technique, because a 15 move series with 10 locks, 3 strikes, and two escapes from grabs is too much for anyone to take in at once. As a martial artist, it becomes pretty clear relatively quickly that almost every move has a counter if your opponent is aware of what is coming or fast enough to react.

By limiting your attacker to one or two moves, you are entering into a kind of agreement for the purposes of honing a skill, i.e. you do this technique and then allow me to work out my reaction, because in my defense I am not resorting to several extreme or easy counters (eye pokes, punches to throat, strikes to groin) that would leave the 'attacker' feeling not so happy. Similarly, when the self defense is first started, the attacker generally starts cooperatively in order to allow the defender to work out the technique, slowly ramping up the difficulty and resistance to more accurately simulate an actual opponent.

I don't think you can find fault in martial arts for self defense, as they are simply a tool for teaching. We don't criticize organized sports for not having beginners face (in baseball for example) 100-mile per hour fastballs. They start hitting off tees, and work their way up. Practicing with a tee is better than not practicing at all, or practicing against the most extreme example of what you may face and always failing. Self defense works on the same principle.

To your second point, just speaking from our school's experience, we tend to find self defense applications and principles from our kata. We can usually find some pretty solid self defense moves from there as we break the motions down and apply them to various grabs, holds, and attacks.

[DJ]

there's also pretty good odds of getting a severed tendon,
which can render your arm pretty much useless.

To be fair, that's better than the punctured lung that might result from them stabbing you in the chest.

Not really, because the guy that cut your tendon is still there with a knife, and you just lost your ability to put up a defence. All it means is your death will take slightly longer.

[jester]

Ill quickly state I havent read the whole 10 pages of this thread, but ill drop in 2 things.  1st is from personal experience.  In pure hand to hand fighting, the 'best' form is often going to depend on the guys doing the fighting.  Ive done a bit of bouncing, am not that tall but built like a brick with short legs but long arms, I also weigh about 100kg and have a nice thick head.  If I can get my hands on you ill either start smacking with my fists or head and possibly grab stuff and twist, im built for close/ground work but I really cant kick well, for me a grappling/boxing style works well, for a tall skinny guy, hanging back and kicking people in the face can be a fast way to end things. 

  The other is from a guy I used to live with who fought in bareknuckle martial arts matches all over the world, he is blackbelt in more than a few styles and now trains mma type fighters for a living.  Guy also worked as a bouncer in some of the rougher places around.  Generally just a hard guy and probably one of the best hand to hand fighters ill ever meet.  He said when he turned about 35 he realized that all his self defense training was pretty much pointless, as a 12yo with a gun had him beat in 9/10 situations. 

  He also had a fairly low opinion of trainers who would teach students stuff like unarmed counters to knives, as quote 'its a great fucking way to get stabbed'  He and the other old hand bouncers would council trying to talk the guy down until a) he turned away and you could pick something large up and wang him with it, or b) keep him looking at you so someone else could pick something up and wang him with it.

[LordBucket]

from our school's experience, we tend to find self defense applications and principles from our kata.

I suspect if you look hard enough you could probably find self defense applications from the tango too.

[Leatra]

I joined the thread a little late and I didn't read much posts but I'll say this: martial arts fights aren't like the ones in the street. I'm not saying martial arts doesn't help, it helps A LOT, but most people assume that the attacker is just going to stand there and take everything you can throw at him. Also, the worst assumption is that the attacker won't fight dirty.

It's real life, you are going to fight dirty in every street fight. Yeah, it's dirty fighting but who the fuck cares if you don't feel like bashing each other repeatedly like gentlemen? Still, there is one thing I hate: Kicking someone while they are on the ground. There is a reason why kicking someone who is on the ground is probably the most hated dirty fighting move. He is down already and he isn't going to hurt you. If you are still kicking, that's not you defending yourself.

Also, who draws first blood is at a gigantic advantage. If you get hit first, you'll be less confident and it will show, you'll be stunned (if the first hit was strong enough) and you'll probably won't be able to counter or evade the second hit. We never expect it to happen, but it happens. You'll get punched when you don't expect it. So, if the argument is getting worse you better be ready for it. Also, don't forget that the first person who delivers the first strike will be the WRONG guy (and you will be the BADASS guy if you counter a first strike) and if there are some helpful people around, they will try to get him down, not you. However, it's not going to matter a lot if you are in a dark alley with no witnesses.

In our fantasy land, we are all badasses with our invented fighting moves and shit. Chances are, you'll probably forget your every fantasy about you beating your boss/your rivals/Justin Bieber with awesome moves when you get into a fight. You might turn into a hopeless slapping machine or simply run away. Even if you try to execute a move, you might forget about the fact that what you are fighting is a human, and he will definitely react to your every move.

To cut it short, if you are not ready for the psychology of a fight, you'll probably get your ass kicked. This is from personal experience. I got sucker punched so hard once, I literally ate away a part of my cheek (I still have scars in my mouth) and my left ear was deaf for 2 months. Psychology is your most important weapon in a street fight. My friend faked mafia affiliation once to get someone off his back. If you are successful with the psychology part of a fight, you might even win without fighting. I'm tall and big but I usually give a Gentle Giant and Nice Guy impression (no, I'm not gonna give TvTropes links. I'm not a monster) and this is a weakness for some people. Once I have realized this, I have learned to use swear words well and fake attitudes, like acting a crazy psychopath. It never works when it's someone who knows you well enough to see through your mask but if it's a stranger you can get him to shit his pants and have him running scared, or you can possibly get him to want to kick your ass more. I think it's something important as martial arts knowledge, but it doesn't help much when the REAL fighting (not just pushing or slapping each other) is occurring.

[DJ]

I have to agree with you there, being a big guy makes a world of difference. I'm 6'5", 210 lbs and I haven't been in a fight since I was 13. I've been in plenty of situations that were leading up to fights, but I managed to defuse them all with diplomacy. People just tend to take the opportunity if they can get out of a fight with a big guy with their honour intact. So yeah, the trick is to use the right ratio of intimidation and respect, and it can't really be boiled down to a formula because it's highly situational.

[LordBucket]

I'm 6'5", 210 lbs and I haven't been in a fight since I was 13.

the trick is to use the right ratio of intimidation and respect

No, the trick is to be 6'5" and 210 pounds. I was 5'6" and 128 pounds when I graduated high school and "diplomacy" as you're euphemistically calling it was a bit more difficult to pull off. Let's just say that I speak from experience when I say that years of traditional karate training and kata and so forth was not conducive to becoming a good fighter.

[DJ]

Yeah, size is definitely a crucial part of it, but size alone won't get you out of a fight if you don't choose your words well.

[Leatra]

Yeah, size is definitely a crucial part of it, but size alone won't get you out of a fight if you don't choose your words well.

Agreed. Also, If you are fighting in public, there is always a chance of an angry mob. I have seen it a few times but according to my dad, it was more common decades ago, when people were actually helpful (weird right?). A guy hits someone, he is perceived as the WRONG guy and he gets his ass kicked by people around the place. Also, if one side is definitely perceived as very weak (old, female, young, disabled) and the guy is still fighting him, that guy deserves an angry mob.

You may be big and muscular, but you aren't going to take 10 people down. Even if you fight, the way you acted before the fight could lead to the guy calling his friends to beat you up, which happens a lot more with strangers than you would believe. Use of words and psychology is important, even if you fight at the end. I mean, I even became friends with a guy I fought.

[jester]

Ive found the 'im a big guy' thing can be a bit of a bad thing when it actually comes down to blows, as you said, you havent been in a fight for years, I was the shortest kid in my highschool and had to fight more than a bit just to keep a lid on guys who thought they could bully me because they were bigger than me.  Ive taken down a few guys who had over a foot on me.  Usually because of the fact that the guy didnt expect me to actually hit him.  As stated above, first blood and a willingness to do violence will win alot of fights.  Especially if the first blow crunches the nose, pretty much blinds the other guy and you then hit him again in exactly the same spot.

  That said the serious fighters I met while bouncing trained in what was just called a 'fighting class'  they would do stuff like lay on the ground and let someone kick them in the stomach so they could get used to it.  If you could survive that class, then stuff like sucker punches where alot less effective against you.

[LoSboccacc]

I'm 6'5", 210 lbs and I haven't been in a fight since I was 13.

the trick is to use the right ratio of intimidation and respect

No, the trick is to be 6'5" and 210 pounds. I was 5'6" and 128 pounds when I graduated high school and "diplomacy" as you're euphemistically calling it was a bit more difficult to pull off. Let's just say that I speak from experience when I say that years of traditional karate training and kata and so forth was not conducive to becoming a good fighter.

Karate has the problem of having become a sport, so everyone only learns to be effective within the enforced rule framework. Just close in anyone practicing traditional karate and see how ineffective he becomes at a short distance.