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Author Topic: BM XXXVIII: Jackelope Bandits: Scum Win: Across the Border  (Read 61537 times)

Bookthras

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Re: BM XXXVIII: Jackelope Bandits Day 3: Peace and Gallows
« Reply #150 on: January 19, 2013, 05:23:28 am »

This is good advice:
If so, I would strongly recommend the LurkerTracker. It's a wondrous tool that allows you to go through each individual player's posts, rather than digging through the thread in order or hunting around for your target.

You can get a direct LurkerTracker result for this game by following or bookmarking this link.

In general, you can get a LurkerTracker for any thread using http://think0028.com/lurkertracker.py?url=thread_url, replacing for the thread_url where noted, or by clicking on the original post of the thread, and then following (or bookmarking) the javascript bookmarklet also linked on the main LukerTracker page:
Code: [Select]
javascript:window.location='http://think0028.com/lurkertracker.py?sort=post&url='+location.href
The LurkerTracker is your friend. Use the LurkerTracker.

         Do not be fooled by imitations! be fooled by us!


PS: Irony, please don't use pink. It's pretty much unreadable for those of us not with a dark background, and incites bad habits on the newbies about colouring stuff in anything other than red and blue, which are the only meaningful colorus to use on this game.
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No one ever listens to Zathras, no. Quite mad, they say.  |  That ain't a shepherd.

Zathras hefts the corpse-of-webadict puppet and works its mouth: "I declare world peace! Yay! All hail Zathras!"
Everyone is handsomely rewarded, and lives happily ever after.  Except for Bookthras, who dies of poison in the night.

IronyOwl

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Re: BM XXXVIII: Jackelope Bandits Day 3: Peace and Gallows
« Reply #151 on: January 19, 2013, 06:07:00 am »

burn_heal:
Wow, you really do bite when you bite, don't you? None of this helpfulness anymore, gosh! Do I detect... anger? Oh dear.
It's the bloodlust. Sometimes I really get into the rhythm and, well.

I'd strongly disagree that none of this is helpfulness anymore, though. Notably the small paragraph giving an explicit example of why actually explaining things is important, but pretty much all of it is instructive.

I'd also say it's less anger and more enjoying myself far too much. You did say you'd keep an eye out for that...

Awfully theatrical, isn't it?
I've yet to hear any better theories from you.
Uh. Did you just completely give up on explaining your arguments in favor of "Well I don't hear any better ideas from you!"?

If you'd like a better theory, I do have one, though: I recognized that !!scientist!! had given up instantly and was thus in a downward spiral of getting himself lynched, and so did my best to explain why and knock him out of that without overwhelming him. That failed, as it's wont to do, and so much later you decided, hey, the IC's lurking, let's pin scientist's lynch on him! Only the IC stopped lurking so that didn't go so well.

So yeah, that's my theory, and I'm willing to elaborate on it as much as is necessary. Now what?

Quote
lazy and scummy.
I'll tell you what is lazy. Not posting. Simply attacking the person who attacks you. That, is what is lazy.
It really is. Not much I can do about the not posting part other than continue doing better in the future, but for the latter part, I'm questioning two people other than you and have been explaining myself rather well, I'd say. Do you have any reason to call my case on you lazy beyond the fact that you voted me first?

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But you're basically done with the day, and presumably you'd like everyone else to be done with the day also, wouldn't you? Or were you just stating that your vote was set for these reasons, have fun figuring out your own targets everyone else?
If I wanted the day to be done, I wouldn't have submitted my post so early in the day. People need time to chew things over. I could be wrong. Of course I could be wrong!

IronyOwl is being very defensive, don't you thinK? I still haven't seen any positive action from him, other than attacking me. (And of course, I am fair game.)
Okay, so now you're trying to convince others and even scumhunt me below, but it looks like you've completely abandoned your original accusations in favor of trying to lynch me on defending against said accusations.

What do you mean by "positive action?"

So who do you think is mafia, Ironyowl? Is your vote on me a “pressure vote” or do you actually think I’m a bandit? What do you think of Onyxjew? Fraxert? Who would you rather lynch out of the two?
You. Less likely Fraxert, and I consider the other three physically possible but not worth looking into until I get around to reexamining the exact circumstances surrounding ReDeadEr's lynch to see if bussing would have been more feasible than I assume.

The vote on you is a lynchvote. I may still change my mind, but more likely than not I'll see you dead at day's end.

Onyx I don't have a particularly good read on, but he's been analytical and seemed fairly active. Er, I'm sure there was a reason I didn't suspect him, but now I can't think of it. Rereading...

His meta-nightkill stuff was obviously bad, but it seemed genuinely bad, not scummy bad. The fact that he owned up to that helps, of course. More of the same later for general suspicions/screwups, leaning town on him. Has been a lot less active than I'd remembered other than that, though.

Alright, so my bad- I don't actually have a reason to explicitly not suspect Onyx. This is why complacency is bad. That said, I am still leaning town on him, though I'd like more out of him. I think my earlier conclusion that he was town until proven otherwise was just my certainty that the last scum was you or fraxert. Again, complacency can be dangerous like that.

For fraxert, I see lurking and... rereading again, I forget if he was actively suspicious. I think so...

Oh right, I remember now. He voted !!scientist!!, unvoted when I called him on not really doing anything with the vote, voted me for unclear reasons, then unvoted. That's basically his contributions to the game. I also find his "If I was scum I'd screw up" answers slightly unsettling.

So, a lurker. Not much of a second suspicion, but I guess it's a good starting point.


So, that was productive. I now suspect fraxert less and Onyx more.



Book: Sorry. Didn't think a few pronouns would matter, especially since I was obviously mocking him a bit.
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Tiruin

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Re: BM XXXVIII: Jackelope Bandits Day 3: Peace and Gallows
« Reply #152 on: January 19, 2013, 09:25:14 am »

Meep :/

Clarifying...

So you've got your attention, seemingly, on IronyOwl. What will you do about it?
IronyOwl Why were you so harsh on scientist on day 1? He's only newb like the rest of us. Are you going to use your influence to crush we inexperienced townies one by one?
Not a good way to start a case...This can be taken two ways - IC//Experienced.

Now Irony is a fair and noble player. He will not use his IC status to [CRUSH_NEWBIES]. An IC is still a player like anyone else. Don't be afraid to attack them...on a better premise than their experience, with this wording. Mostly, helpfulness = him playing as an IC. Helpfulness also doesn't mean that he's...err, how do you see it?  Helpfulness/Unhelpfulness =/= Scum/town, and for me, is a nulltell. There are players like that...

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Captain Ford [...] against ReDeader. [...]

Tiruin[...] against ReDeader[...] I believe you [both] are innocent.
Next, this kind of thinking goes both ways. Just because people voted for a player, who is a mafioso, this doesn't apparently clear them. See: Bussing, Drive under a bus.

Your innocent meter on me and Ford raised because...we voted for RDE, and he turned up Mafia? Could you explain that?

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this leaves 2 primary suspects: IronyOwl and OnyxJew. Which just so happens to be the number of mafia left!
...You do know there are 2 mafioso, and 1 just got lynched right?

Lastly, (busy atm, have enough to address this)

Quote
IronyOwl is being very defensive, don't you thinK? I still haven't seen any positive action from him, other than attacking me. (And of course, I am fair game.)
Err, what's wrong with being defensive? I've seen lots of people being defensive this game...actually, all games. People become defensive in their own unique way.

What's wrong with that? (Also, pointing that out to others without any explanation and alluding it to something doesn't help sharpen that point you're trying to make.)
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Onyxjew944

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Re: BM XXXVIII: Jackelope Bandits Day 3: Peace and Gallows
« Reply #153 on: January 19, 2013, 11:02:36 am »

Alright, this thread got active. I'll have a post up in about ten to twenty minutes when I finish reading all this.
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Onyxjew944

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Re: BM XXXVIII: Jackelope Bandits Day 3: Peace and Gallows
« Reply #154 on: January 19, 2013, 11:27:11 am »

Onyxjew: to be honest, I’m finding hard to read. What’s your read on IronyOwl?

Can you explain your leads on everyone? Same question goes for Onyxjew944.

Both of your answers will be condensed into the same answer as burn_heal's is a sub-topic. Alright, this could take a while. I don't have much concrete, but as with everyone, I do have suspicions and annoyances.

Captain Ford Nothing much on him, he openly called it luck when he got ReDeadEr. Shooting down a mafioso does help him be called innocent, and the fact that he has been pretty active as far as I can tell leaves me with little reason to chase him. Not completely off the list, as no one is until they're dead.

Ironyowl I don't remember too much of use or import from you. All that comes to mind is that cavalry charge against scientist, and the newly heated argument with burn_heal. Basically a stack of defenses and blind rage-fueled offenses. Nothing useful or concrete from either of you throughout all that. I wouldn't call it a wall of text, but I'm staying away from that mess for now.

burn_heal You are mainly characterized by that argument I mentioned above. I don't really remember much about you earlier.

Tiruin He's proven useful. Nothing he has done has been without reason or logic, if memory serves. So he's about as clear as Ford. Which is to say on the list, but not quite worthy of examination just yet.

Fraxert Now you, are lacking in controversy or in fame.  I'm putting you through the LurkerTracker now. Yup, nothing. Twelve posts, but the last three were all useless, by my terms. Everything before those three useless bits were from page one and were lynching scientist. That's definitely interesting. Care to explain your inactivity, Fraxert?
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Quote from: Steel Resolve
I shall be ready! My head is full of disturbing but useful information. And all it cost me was my peace of mind and sanity. A bargain!
Quote
They told me to aim higher, so we dug deeper.

burn_heal

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Re: BM XXXVIII: Jackelope Bandits Day 3: Peace and Gallows
« Reply #155 on: January 19, 2013, 04:11:01 pm »

Tiruin:

Your innocent meter on me and Ford raised because...we voted for RDE, and he turned up Mafia? Could you explain that?
In such a close vote, I gather it would only ever be an extremely bold and rare move to vote your own mafia. A mafia wouldn’t have done it - hence I think you and Captain Ford are innocent. At least, that’s good enough for me at this stage.

...You do know there are 2 mafioso, and 1 just got lynched right?
THERE WERE ONLY TWO MAFIOSO?? Oh s**t. There goes my whole bloody theory. I thought there were three! So we’re only looking for one then? Oh dear.

Quote
Err, what's wrong with being defensive? I've seen lots of people being defensive this game...actually, all games. People become defensive in their own unique way.

What's wrong with that?

I thought that was a scumtell? The main thing bothering me about IronyOwl at this point is that I have no idea what his thoughts are about other players. And his lurking; however IronyOwl did say he was busy, and there’s nothing you can do about RL business I suppose.



Tiruin, have you played any mafia games with IronyOwl before? If so, do you have any idea how he would behave if he were mafia?

Captain Ford: What’s you’re guilt-meter saying about Onyxjew?



I think I need to go back in my cave and rethink the situation. Sorry about the craziness.
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Captain Ford

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Re: BM XXXVIII: Jackelope Bandits Day 2: The Saloon
« Reply #156 on: January 19, 2013, 04:18:43 pm »

...I did not expect to survive the night. But man does it feel good to be wrong!

We have a Doctor in the house! 8)

I'm not going to pretend that nailing ReDeadEr was anything but luck. But it feels good anyway. Not so hopeless anymore, is it?

At this point, the doctor shouldn't claim. I just want to throw that out there right away. We're still going to need you, fella. But I'd like to give you a big thank you for saving my butt last night!
Captain Ford: Can you explain how you came up with this?

Sure. The vote was tied up until I changed my vote to ReDeadEr at the last second (within 30 minutes of day end). If I were scum, that would have been a ludicrously bad move, especially when I could have let it go to a no-lynch.

That makes me an obvious target for the last remaining bandit. Any person who's confirmed town (or nearly so) is one less person who can attract suspicion away from them. The doctor was smart enough to see it the same way.

OR the last remaining bandit decided not to use his nightkill and plans to claim doctor himself. But he'd be gambling that there wasn't an actual doctor who could counterclaim.

I realize I can't prove I'm not the last bandit. From your point of view, it's possible that I bussed my scumbuddy. But that would mean I was willing to gamble that you people would actually behave the way I wanted you to.
And that's a stupid gamble. Seriously.
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...Holy shit. Ford, you get the Official Medal of Epic Awesomeness.
Its official! Ford! You need to put it in your sig now! "Official Mafia Welcomer!"

Captain Ford

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Re: BM XXXVIII: Jackelope Bandits Day 3: Peace and Gallows
« Reply #157 on: January 19, 2013, 06:26:36 pm »

Ford:
-snip-
This looks kind of like you're trying to buddy up to/draw out the doc, to be honest. Why so vocal and jubilant?
Because I'm legitimately surprised and happy to still be in the game. Seriously, all Thursday night I was , "sheesh, might as well send me the link to deadchat already. We all already know I'm going to die tonight."

Also, that's why I immediately said, "don't reveal yourself, doc." I was really worried the doctor would claim. It isn't necessary and it would really hurt our chances of winning.

But that doesn't mean I'm not happy he saved my life. :)



Captain Ford: What’s you’re guilt-meter saying about Onyxjew?
His only interaction with ReDeadEr is this statement: "I concur with burn_heal and ReDeadEr".

Which happens to point out that both you and ReDeadEr were pushing the same argument. There's no issue with that, though.



After looking over the back and forth between you two (burn_heal and IronyOwl), I'm not entirely sure what to think. You both seem to quite strongly suspect the other.

I've had a gut feeling about burn_heal since the beginning. But going over the thread, I've begun to see why he's seen so little pressure up to now. If he is a bandit, then he's actually very good at not looking like one. I'm curious to know why IronyOwl suspects him.

IronyOwl:
What do you have to say for yourself, IronyOwl?
That it's kind of shameful that we got lucky D2 and scum overplayed their hand D3.

What did you mean by "scum overplayed their hand D3"? You obviously see something very damning about burn_heal. What is it?
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...Holy shit. Ford, you get the Official Medal of Epic Awesomeness.
Its official! Ford! You need to put it in your sig now! "Official Mafia Welcomer!"

Captain Ford

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Re: BM XXXVIII: Jackelope Bandits Day 3: Peace and Gallows
« Reply #158 on: January 19, 2013, 07:23:57 pm »

Just found this now:
And to add to my query, @ tie, what made you shift your vote Captain Ford?

Umm...is it not obvious? No-lynches are bad for town. I picked ReDeadEr just because he was contributing so very little. I actually thought (at least at one time) that he was the town doctor.

...which only confirms my belief that scum and doctors tend to look alike.



Tiruin: Might as well return the favor. You happened to be on the lynch of ReDeadEr, and we both know that doesn't clear you in any way.

...actually, I'm more interested in your opinion of IronyOwl. Both Onyxjew and burn_heal seem to think that IronyOwl steamrolled over Scientist. They can't both be scum. Do you think IronyOwl may have been leading that lynch?

IronyOwl: What do you think of Tiruin? Do you think he expected ReDeadEr to end up being lynched?
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...Holy shit. Ford, you get the Official Medal of Epic Awesomeness.
Its official! Ford! You need to put it in your sig now! "Official Mafia Welcomer!"

Tiruin

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Re: BM XXXVIII: Jackelope Bandits Day 3: Peace and Gallows
« Reply #159 on: January 20, 2013, 12:03:38 am »

Burn

Your innocent meter on me and Ford raised because...we voted for RDE, and he turned up Mafia? Could you explain that?
In such a close vote, I gather it would only ever be an extremely bold and rare move to vote your own mafia. A mafia wouldn’t have done it - hence I think you and Captain Ford are innocent. At least, that’s good enough for me at this stage.
...There were only two votes. Also, look at Jim Groovester's last BM - I was scum there and look what happened to Flying Dice (who I thoroughly miss seeing on these boards...)

Also, if we're innocent in your eye, shall you stop questioning us? Nay, I say. Keep on asking things. But if you have a strong enough read, then ensure it!



Ford
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Because I'm legitimately surprised and happy to still be in the game. Seriously, all Thursday night I was , "sheesh, might as well send me the link to deadchat already. We all already know I'm going to die tonight."

Also, that's why I immediately said, "don't reveal yourself, doc." I was really worried the doctor would claim. It isn't necessary and it would really hurt our chances of winning.
So..you derived the idea that 'I lynched the scumbag. I'm going to get the NK.'

Why?

You thought the doctor would claim at that time instead of acting on his own ideals,

Why?

Quote
...actually, I'm more interested in your opinion of IronyOwl. Both Onyxjew and burn_heal seem to think that IronyOwl steamrolled over Scientist. They can't both be scum. Do you think IronyOwl may have been leading that lynch?
I believe that the vote has no correlation to the person at that time. Sure, Onyx and burn think that Irony 'steamrolled' scientist, but the votee did not seem to defend himself properly, or pick a convincing argument there. The two people you've picked out also seem to be deriving who Irony is on that certain lynch.

Its like...everyone doing so over the lynch instead of analyzing a person's posts. Also, Irony couldn't have 'led' the lynch if there was noone else to follow.

Lastly, why are you going along on possibilities instead of attacking what posts people did? I see a lot of hypothetical areas, which only lead to what we've seen - not you pointing out the essence of how we got there.
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burn_heal

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Re: BM XXXVIII: Jackelope Bandits Day 3: Peace and Gallows
« Reply #160 on: January 20, 2013, 12:20:24 am »

If you'd like a better theory, I do have one, though: I recognized that !!scientist!! had given up instantly and was thus in a downward spiral of getting himself lynched, and so did my best to explain why and knock him out of that without overwhelming him. That failed, as it's wont to do, and so much later you decided, hey, the IC's lurking, let's pin scientist's lynch on him! Only the IC stopped lurking so that didn't go so well.
This is more what I was wanting to hear, thankyou. Trust me about this point - I would not take on an IC if I were mafia. Yes, yes, I know... WIFOM and all that... but I'm usually not a gutsy person. I was told to be active. I was told to be bold - so that's what I'm doing. If you have a problem with that, go ahead and vote me.

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Do you have any reason to call my case on you lazy beyond the fact that you voted me first?
I suppose on rethinking you can't call someone "lazy" if they have. I just felt like I was being punished be you for being active. Having slept on it and rereading, I can see your still trying to help. The truth is no one had really questioned you at all until I did. I'm going to wait and see what others make of your post. I have learnt one thing from last night - you are a damn good mafia player.

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Okay, so now you're trying to convince others and even scumhunt me below, but it looks like you've completely abandoned your original accusations in favor of trying to lynch me on defending against said accusations.

What do you mean by "positive action?"
scumhunting. You have been questioning people - so I suppose that constitutes scumhunting, yes. But I felt like I knew nothing of your views. This seemed scummy to me. That has been rectified in your last post.

You are obviously a very good player of this game. Knowing what your thoughts are will be key to us finding out whether you're scum, if that's the case. Even if I die getting this information out of you, it may be worth it in the long run.

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You. Less likely Fraxert, and I consider the other three physically possible but not worth looking into until I get around to reexamining the exact circumstances surrounding ReDeadEr's lynch to see if bussing would have been more feasible than I assume.
This is the kind of stuff I wanted to hear from you.

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The vote on you is a lynchvote. I may still change my mind, but more likely than not I'll see you dead at day's end.
Very well then.

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So, that was productive. I now suspect fraxert less and Onyx more.
I would have to agree with you on this. One of the reasons is ReDeadEr's post I examined earlier. Onyx has seemed active, but he's also seemed to me to be a bit cautious. I'm going to analyze Onyx's posts a bit more.
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burn_heal

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Re: BM XXXVIII: Jackelope Bandits Day 3: Peace and Gallows
« Reply #161 on: January 20, 2013, 12:28:53 am »

Captain Ford: do you have a read on IronyOwl? I must say I feel lost at the moment.
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burn_heal

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Re: BM XXXVIII: Jackelope Bandits [Sign-ups] Day 1: The Courthouse
« Reply #162 on: January 20, 2013, 12:45:19 am »

Fraxert If you were mafia, how would you act the first day?
Probably pick fights.

This comment is interesting.

Fraxert hasn't been posting much lately, which is a worry. Is he deliberately lurking staying out of the heat so that he look the opposite of what he thinks is mafia-like behaviour?
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Onyxjew944

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Re: BM XXXVIII: Jackelope Bandits Day 3: Peace and Gallows
« Reply #163 on: January 20, 2013, 08:37:38 am »

Time to make an amazingly short post.


Note:
I do not think Irony was trying to [NOOB_CRUSH]. I said he led the charge, I never said me and burn didn't follow along almost blindly. It was a community blunder, I don't blame Irony for it. He made the more damning posts, but scientist didn't exactly do the best job of defending himself.



Summary:
I am not blaming Ironyowl for the death of +‼scientist‼+. I am blaming +‼scientist‼+, , burn_heal, and Ironyowl. And I do not care about that event in relation to current suspicions, too much noob, not enough certainty of scuminess. Still waiting for Fraxert to respond...
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I shall be ready! My head is full of disturbing but useful information. And all it cost me was my peace of mind and sanity. A bargain!
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They told me to aim higher, so we dug deeper.

Captain Ford

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Re: BM XXXVIII: Jackelope Bandits Day 3: Peace and Gallows
« Reply #164 on: January 20, 2013, 04:07:12 pm »

Ford
Quote
Because I'm legitimately surprised and happy to still be in the game. Seriously, all Thursday night I was , "sheesh, might as well send me the link to deadchat already. We all already know I'm going to die tonight."

Also, that's why I immediately said, "don't reveal yourself, doc." I was really worried the doctor would claim. It isn't necessary and it would really hurt our chances of winning.
So..you derived the idea that 'I lynched the scumbag. I'm going to get the NK.'

Why?

...I'm sorry. What isn't logical about that?

Quote
You thought the doctor would claim at that time instead of acting on his own ideals,

Why?

I thought the doctor might claim. That isn't the same thing. This is a game full of newbies. How unlikely is it for somebody to make that mistake?

Quote
Quote
...actually, I'm more interested in your opinion of IronyOwl. Both Onyxjew and burn_heal seem to think that IronyOwl steamrolled over Scientist. They can't both be scum. Do you think IronyOwl may have been leading that lynch?
I believe that the vote has no correlation to the person at that time. Sure, Onyx and burn think that Irony 'steamrolled' scientist, but the votee did not seem to defend himself properly, or pick a convincing argument there. The two people you've picked out also seem to be deriving who Irony is on that certain lynch.

Its like...everyone doing so over the lynch instead of analyzing a person's posts. Also, Irony couldn't have 'led' the lynch if there was noone else to follow.
All good points.

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Lastly, why are you going along on possibilities instead of attacking what posts people did? I see a lot of hypothetical areas, which only lead to what we've seen - not you pointing out the essence of how we got there.

...because I'm the one responsible for both lynches? It was my question that made Scientist squirm. Afterwards I didn't think he was scum, but I wasn't surprised that he accumulated votes.

But you have a point, so I went back and investigated who put their votes where. Guess what I found?

Tiruin: All of the hints you've been giving us seem to be pointing to you. Perhaps you're just being too helpful for your own good?

1. You told me to look at how we got here. Well, you were on Scientist's lynch. And for very weak reasons.
2. You've been very clear about the fact that lynching scum doesn't make either of us town. Which is great, because it makes you look town (for discrediting yourself) while also discrediting me.

And then why are you tunneling me? Sure, if you're town, I'm worth investigating, and if you're scum, I'm worth discrediting. But why are you ignoring everyone else? You've addressed burn_heal once. But otherwise, you're focusing all your attention on the person who is least likely to be scum.

You only voted ReDeadEr after I unvoted him, creating a tie vote at a point close to the deadline. You wouldn't have expected me to vote him again, would you? It was a great way to distance yourself.

Overall, you've been very helpful. But I never got the sense that you were doing anything else. It looks to me like you were just gliding along on your IC status without contributing any scumhunting of your own, or getting involved in any arguments. Heck, even your lynch vote on ReDeadEr sounds like you were giving advice to your scumbuddy.

I've been suspicious of everybody, but right now, you're really pinging on my scumdar.
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...Holy shit. Ford, you get the Official Medal of Epic Awesomeness.
Its official! Ford! You need to put it in your sig now! "Official Mafia Welcomer!"
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