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[Damiac]

That's why I was suggesting a skill gain limit tied to weapon material.  So a wooden weapon hitting you can only train you to, say, competent, and hitting something with a wooden weapon has a similar limit for the weapon skill. 

This means for a danger room to be any good at training dwarves, it has to be made with actual dangerous weapons.  This also means you can't beat up on a defenseless goblin for days with a wooden stick and expect to be a legendary swordsdwarf.  While training is the purpose of a training weapon, you can't expect someone to be a master of using a real weapon when they've only handled a blunted wooden version of it.  They can get the basic techniques down, but it's not the same as using a real weapon.

I do agree that the normal training methods should produce better results.   And the exp for real combat seems fair right now, I certainly wouldn't lower that.

[Aseaheru]

what happens if a dwarf naturally, without exploits, gains that much XP a month?

like with strange moods boosting someone to legendary from nothing?

[Adrian]

The thread's title: "Limit experience gaining to nerf training installations" is proposing a wrong solution to the wrong problem.
The problem is not that dorfs are gaining experience to quickly (although this is debatable in the case of mining and fast, repetitive tasks like smoothing walls or making crafts), the problem is that people are able to use the danger-room exploits.

Danger-rooms break the training mechanism, because they (ironically) aren't dangerous to the user.
And although i agree it needs to be fixed, i cannot imagine how.

[GreatWyrmGold]

That's why I was suggesting a skill gain limit tied to weapon material.  So a wooden weapon hitting you can only train you to, say, competent, and hitting something with a wooden weapon has a similar limit for the weapon skill. 

This means for a danger room to be any good at training dwarves, it has to be made with actual dangerous weapons.  This also means you can't beat up on a defenseless goblin for days with a wooden stick and expect to be a legendary swordsdwarf.  While training is the purpose of a training weapon, you can't expect someone to be a master of using a real weapon when they've only handled a blunted wooden version of it.  They can get the basic techniques down, but it's not the same as using a real weapon.

There are some problems.
One, an elf hitting you with a (wooden) sword should train you more than a danger room, yet as much as a goblin with a copper weapon. The training is from avoiding blows, not how much the blows could hurt.
Two, the reason danger rooms "shouldn't" train dwarves to Legendary Warriors isn't the wood, it's the repetitive mechanicalness, which isn't much like an actual combat situation.
Three, you didn't actually address my concerns with that.

The thread's title: "Limit experience gaining to nerf training installations" is proposing a wrong solution to the wrong problem.
The problem is not that dorfs are gaining experience to quickly (although this is debatable in the case of mining and fast, repetitive tasks like smoothing walls or making crafts), the problem is that people are able to use the danger-room exploits.

Danger-rooms break the training mechanism, because they (ironically) aren't dangerous to the user.
And although i agree it needs to be fixed, i cannot imagine how.

The only way to make danger rooms not work is to not give dwarves XP from getting hit by traps (and they should get SOME), or by making active upright spears not hurt dwarves (worse).

[Hyndis]

Doing training without a danger room is far too slow to get any decent military up and running. Even if you do custom reactions to allow dwarves to become legendary+5 teachers and students, training rates are still extremely slow, to the point that relying on a purely melee military really is not practical. You can get away with massed crossbows, because the crossbows will cause plenty of death and injury before a melee even happens, but if you want your soldiers to have axes and hammers and mix it up in melee, its just not really going to work.

The problem isn't with danger rooms being too good, the problem is that regular training is too slow and not very effective. If training in a barracks was more effective then there would be no need for danger rooms. This isn't to say that a dwarf should go from recruit to legendary+5 after a single lesson in a barracks, but there should be progression at a reasonable pace.

[Aseaheru]

you can fix training rooms by making wooden weapons usefull.

[XXSockXX]

The problem isn't with danger rooms being too good, the problem is that regular training is too slow and not very effective. If training in a barracks was more effective then there would be no need for danger rooms. This isn't to say that a dwarf should go from recruit to legendary+5 after a single lesson in a barracks, but there should be progression at a reasonable pace.

No, the problem is that many players can't figure out how training works. You get legendary soldiers with about 2 years of training and much faster if they see some actual combat or just kill things. That pace is perfectly fine.

you can fix training rooms by making wooden weapons usefull.

Wooden weapons should be pretty useless against metal armor, there is nothing wrong with that.

Danger-rooms break the training mechanism, because they (ironically) aren't dangerous to the user.
And although i agree it needs to be fixed, i cannot imagine how.

It would not be fixed by limiting skill gain, even with that danger rooms would be more effective than regular training.
I don't think it's an urgent issue to be fixed. It is an exploit and many players never use it. But nothing prevents you from drowning your enemies in magma with DFhack's liquids tool either.

[Damiac]

I suppose you have a point GWG. 

I would definitely disagree that it's impossible to get a decent military without danger rooms.  I've never used danger rooms and have fended off some large invasions, using mostly melee troops.  Granted I took some casualties, but that's to be expected.  I have never gotten legendary soldiers via normal training though, over a lot longer than 2 years, and I'm pretty sure I know how training works, so please enlighten me on how you accomplish that, socks.

It doesn't seem like there's any reasonable way to "fix" danger rooms, unless you want the wooden spears to actually kill the dwarves on occasion, and at that point you've fixed them right out of being useable, if you ask me.  It's really not that big of a deal though, as people keep saying, it's not like you're going to accidentally set up a danger room.

[Aseaheru]

i menat that if you made it so that wooden weapons did something, and for this i mean training weapons, then danger rooms would hurt.


but if you DO have the XP-earn-limit then you will do far more harm than good.

[XXSockXX]

I have never gotten legendary soldiers via normal training though, over a lot longer than 2 years, and I'm pretty sure I know how training works, so please enlighten me on how you accomplish that, socks.

Squads of 2, training all year. After a while they'll spar all the time. Starting with migrants that bring some combat skill, later mixing unexperienced dwarfs in. I also embark with one military dwarf who has some teacher skill. Also it helps alot to let them kill wildlife and prisoners. Depending on how many sieges and ambushes you get, and what kind of animals, live-training is really fast.

[GreatWyrmGold]

i menat that if you made it so that wooden weapons did something, and for this i mean training weapons, then danger rooms would hurt.

Whack someone in metal armor with a big stick some time. They might be annoyed, but other than that they'll be fine.
Also consider that this would mean that dwarves with wooden axes could slaughter sieges...

I have never gotten legendary soldiers via normal training though, over a lot longer than 2 years, and I'm pretty sure I know how training works, so please enlighten me on how you accomplish that, socks.

Squads of 2, training all year. After a while they'll spar all the time. Starting with migrants that bring some combat skill, later mixing unexperienced dwarfs in. I also embark with one military dwarf who has some teacher skill. Also it helps alot to let them kill wildlife and prisoners. Depending on how many sieges and ambushes you get, and what kind of animals, live-training is really fast.

Live training is. Sparring? Well...I've tried that. Lots of dwarves in "Individual Combat Drill," not a lot of skill gain.

[Aseaheru]

i never said itll work on metal armor.

you CAN do it and keep it realistic.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Most people using danger rooms armor their dwarves first.

[XXSockXX]

Live training is. Sparring? Well...I've tried that. Lots of dwarves in "Individual Combat Drill," not a lot of skill gain.

I may overestimate the effect of training because I do lots of live training, but after a certain skill gain soldiers in small squads (I always use 2, there are other possibilities) are sparring all the time. They have the "Spar" job, not "Individual Combat Drill", and that raises skill levels much faster than any other form of training.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I have only rarely seen soldiers spar. Must be a difference of methods.