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[majikero]

I keep imagining some sort of murder investigation when one of the more prominent blacksmith gets murdered. The new blacksmith that settled in from a different town gets blamed and the true culprit was actually an assassin hired by a trade caravan to open a metal export on that town since the good blacksmith won't be using the metal.

[Sappho]

I keep imagining some sort of murder investigation when one of the more prominent blacksmith gets murdered. The new blacksmith that settled in from a different town gets blamed and the true culprit was actually an assassin hired by a trade caravan to open a metal export on that town since the good blacksmith won't be using the metal.

Things like this can happen if the playerbase is good. Unfortunately most players of online games are not interested in becoming immersed in the world. They just want to exert power over people that they can't exert in real life, which in most cases means annoying other players (not characters!) by making the game difficult to play. This is the real danger. No automatic systems can stop this from happening.

Personally I think if you want to have a game with permadeath, new players should have to send in an application and be approved individually. Something complicated enough to deter those who just want to annoy other people on the internet. Any system where you can sign up automatically is open to abuse, and it doesn't matter how often you ban someone - it's easy enough to make a new account and even get a new IP.

[Alkhemia]

Well I think the fact that it not free to play with help that.

[Kruniac]

It sounds like a lot of it is going to be pure chaos, but that may be in a good way.

If you have ever played Faces of Mankind, it had a lot of similar ideas in it... And a lot of problems.

Organized groups will always be more powerful simply due to the power of numbers; Unorganized players will be killed one by one, unless they also team up.  So there needs to be protection in place for "Freelancers" and the like.  I mean, not all players would want to join a clan, and there is no reason they should be ganked by roaming gangs.

The solution doesn't have to be "Gamey" either.  Something as simple as warning when a large group of players is nearby.  I just worry it's going to become a "Join up or die" type of thing (Which is often true in reality) but having freedom would be nice.

Also, would it be possible to have a script summon monsters automatically?  How exactly can you earn monster points?

P.S.  Neonivek, Every single thread you are in I see you arguing with people, haha

Individual characters can use Influence to gain Hirelings, just like anyone else. Influence is accrued via trading with players, or over time. There is no "grinding" influence. On the subject of "solo" players, the law of the land is simple - if you are by yourself, you aren't really a part of "civilization". Therefore you live by the laws of the wilds, which often is "might makes right".

While a player could use the spell system to "summon" an entity, Monster Play is a mode of gameplay unto itself. Everyone has access to "Tier 1" monsters, and can either control them directly, or assign them a script to run by themselves. This is happening constantly, regardless of what character you are playing. You accrue Monster Points from your monster populations simply surviving and reproducing. Through this, we allow the players to create the ecosystem of the game world.

Example - My Slime population is doing well. They are consuming matter (oh my) and splitting. I'm gaining Monster Points to unlock Goblins (another Underground-type monster). I spend a certain number of Monster Points to "spawn" a Goblin at a random location in the underworld, and I begin creating my Goblin tribe/civilization/whatevericallit.

We've tried very hard to ensure that each monster playstyle has variety and some unique features to it. For instance, Minotaurs will be able to create mazes, Slimes can split to reproduce, Elementals can change form into various elemental types, and Dragons... Well...

They just want to exert power over people that they can't exert in real life, which in most cases means annoying other players (not characters!) by making the game difficult to play. This is the real danger. No automatic systems can stop this from happening.

Trolls and griefers are common in MMOs, unfortunately. The only "system" in place to deal with them would be the social stigma associated with being a douche. I could be wrong, but as I said before, I highly doubt the community would want to empower those types of players with Influence via trade, knowing that it could harm the community itself. An annoying person might very well find himself exiled from player settlements, put on "lists" so hirelings do unfortunate things to them on sight, etc. In theory, a player could become so outcast that the only two options are suicide, or living in the wilderness like a barbarian, subject to the creatures of the land.

Personally I think if you want to have a game with permadeath, new players should have to send in an application and be approved individually. Something complicated enough to deter those who just want to annoy other people on the internet. Any system where you can sign up automatically is open to abuse, and it doesn't matter how often you ban someone - it's easy enough to make a new account and even get a new IP.

From a personal perspective, this isn't a bad idea. I've played MU*s which do this kind of thing, and it keeps the population sharp. However, from a business perspective, we ARE making an MMORPG here. We can't review potentially thousands of players, and we can't dictate who can play and who cannot. It's not our place to say "You don't know how to do this/You aren't good enough to be here.". That's up to you guys.

Well I think the fact that it not free to play with help that.

This.

I'd like to mention (perhaps again) that we do have systems in place to prevent players from creating a character, and immediately destroying property and/or slaughtering others. After a certain point of advancement, new characters will be able to break more and more "Laws" (which are player created, and zoned according to Influence of that player), until they can do whatever they want. The exception to this would be in lawless areas, in which anyone could do anything without restriction.

Example -I roll a new character. I have 0 Will. I cannot break any laws. Someone has set a law of 10 Severity, and the terms are "Cannot walk on the mushrooms in the garden". Until I get 10 Will (which is gained through character advancement via the Skill Grid, which is further unlocked via Influence), I cannot break that law. At/After 10 Will, I can break that law, and suffer whatever penalties are associated with it.

[Puzzlemaker]

So monster play involves basically running your own monster town then?  It's not just limited to however many hirelings you can get?  That's what I assumed.  I still don't fully understand how it works.  Honestly running your own little monster kingdom thing and attacking players foolish enough to wonder into your domain sounds awesome.

[Matz05]

Oooh, this sounds better and better...

I might just have to Kickstarter contribute 35-30 dollars for this... I don't play paid MMOs usually, but I've always wanted some kind of a virtural world with both player scripted creatures/etc. and some form of physics/rules...

[Kruniac]

So monster play involves basically running your own monster town then?  It's not just limited to however many hirelings you can get?  That's what I assumed.  I still don't fully understand how it works.  Honestly running your own little monster kingdom thing and attacking players foolish enough to wonder into your domain sounds awesome.

If you want to form politics with others monsters, that's entirely up to you. Wolf packs might run together, and we plan on introducing a lobby system for monster players (and human towns/villages/whatever) to set their organization to "Open". So if I'm rolling a wolf, I can opt to join a player's pack, and I would spawn with them when they can afford another pack mate. Or I could run solo, and use wolf hirelings as my packmates.

Monster Play really works the same way as playing as a human (or Dwarf or whatever), except Monsters will be able to do some unique things, may not have all access to building types (wolves won't be crafting an anvil and whatnot), and earn Monster Points from existing in the game world.

For those players who don't want to play as a Monster, or don't really care about Monster Points, they can just toss a basic script of some kind (like a "Slime script", or "Goblin forager, Goblin ambusher") of script on their monster entity and let it run on it's own.

This isn't to say that monster will be "against" humans, or anything for that matter. We wanted to avoid any kind of implementation that forces a player into a "race war" setting. Minotaurs might have alliances with human factions, goblins and wolves might leave each other be for mutual interests, spiders (oh god, the spiders) might work with the Dopplegangers (a golem transformation) to fool humans into their lairs, etc.

We plan on monsters to reproduce in various ways. Wolves will probably just make more wolves. Slimes split. Spiders use living hosts (and you should see the animation we have for this - yummy). The list goes on and on.

We've recently implemented Arch-Fiends (think make-a-deal-type-devils) and how they have special mechanics. Dragons. Overlords (Illithid without copyright problems). Observers (Beholders without copyright problems).

Anyway. Yeah. Monster Play.

[Matz05]

Oooooh... Shiny delicious dev teasing!

Must... obtain... credit... card. Must... throw... MONEY!

[Sappho]

I'd like to mention (perhaps again) that we do have systems in place to prevent players from creating a character, and immediately destroying property and/or slaughtering others. After a certain point of advancement, new characters will be able to break more and more "Laws" (which are player created, and zoned according to Influence of that player), until they can do whatever they want. The exception to this would be in lawless areas, in which anyone could do anything without restriction.

Example -I roll a new character. I have 0 Will. I cannot break any laws. Someone has set a law of 10 Severity, and the terms are "Cannot walk on the mushrooms in the garden". Until I get 10 Will (which is gained through character advancement via the Skill Grid, which is further unlocked via Influence), I cannot break that law. At/After 10 Will, I can break that law, and suffer whatever penalties are associated with it.

I'd like to hear more about the "systems" you keep mentioning. This laws system sounds like it could help a lot. On the other hand, what is to prevent a more powerful character (or group of characters) from making laws that prevent new characters from doing anything at all? I could easily see a group eventually becoming so large and powerful that they can essentially make all new characters into slaves as soon as they join the game.

By the way, I do like your game idea, I've just seen so many similar ideas fail due to dickish players that I want to really understand how you plan to keep them from ruining it. Even pay to play games are often filled with jerks.

Also, have you given any thought to the idea of dying not just being a punishment, and offering some sort of benefit aside from just losing stuff? Also maybe including something like dying of old age, so that everyone dies eventually and it's not just a partial "game over"? If I worked really hard to build up a lot of skills and belongings and so forth and then got killed by some jerk who surprised me and managed to get a lucky hit, I'd probably ragequit instantly rather than making a new character. That's why I stopped playing Haven & Hearth.

[h3lblad3]

I stopped playing Haven and Hearth because every time they changed the rules of how the world worked, it got further from what I liked (example: finding plants growing in the wild vs. finding a plant that can become anything after being dried).

Still, I see a community of *channers or goons building whole cities whose job is to slaughter everyone. And I see multiple servers falling to the threat of Mordor/4chan/Something Awful. Just like HnH. Sounds like fun.

[alexandertnt]

Monster play

Interesting...

Whenever players sit on chairs crafted by you, you gain experience.  Whenever players slay creatures with swords forged by you, you gain experience.

Interesting...

Although I am worried that the game will attract griefers. It sounds like the sort of thing that needs the right player base to be fair.
"will pay harshly for angering the community, and gives the community the power to 'remove' unwanted players."
By which time the Griefer will already have run off laughing and not care. They would probably just "remove" themselves in some cases.


Still, I am liking what I am reading (except perhaps death, sounds somewhat too harsh). Oh and scripting .

[Neonivek]

Neonivek, Every single thread you are in I see you arguing with people, haha

Yeah I am very embarassed everytime someone brings it up. Mostly because it isn't intentional and I do believe that being consistantly and constantly negative and arguementative and oppinionated is a bad thing.

I don't like the idea that if there was a "Bay12games Forum The Movie" that I'd probably be the villain.

Although I am worried that the game will attract griefers

Let me put your worry to rest. Of course it will attract griefers.

The way I understand it is that the game will mostly be balanced because uninterested people will have the power to casually fight against griefers and that combat stats only get you so far. I don't exactly believe the development staff with how advanced their technique is.

Also yes the "Remove unwanted players" is something that did raise a few alarm bells.

[Kruniac]

I'd like to hear more about the "systems" you keep mentioning.

The law system is the primary system to prevent griefing without loss. If a player wants to do something that an authority considers "illegal", they will have to put some effort into playing the game, and therefore having something to lose.

On the other hand, what is to prevent a more powerful character (or group of characters) from making laws that prevent new characters from doing anything at all? I could easily see a group eventually becoming so large and powerful that they can essentially make all new characters into slaves as soon as they join the game.

When a new player spawns at an obelisk (which is a combination of spawn point and biome adjuster), a ruling body in that area could very well have some lame laws set. Maybe it's illegal to try and leave or something. However, players can choose where to start the game via the obelisk system, so worst case scenario - a new character commits suicide and starts elsewhere.

By the way, I do like your game idea, I've just seen so many similar ideas fail due to dickish players that I want to really understand how you plan to keep them from ruining it. Even pay to play games are often filled with jerks.

I mean, at some point we could implement community based mechanics for dealing with "problem players', but I really tried to stay as far away from "cliques rule the world" mechanics as much as possible. Which is why a solo player could potentially be more powerful in terms of arms than a group, because they have a positive reputation with the community, commit to trade, and therefore gain more influence.

Also, have you given any thought to the idea of dying not just being a punishment, and offering some sort of benefit aside from just losing stuff?

The only real benefit to losing your skills and influence would be the chance to start over if you happened to irritate a powerful enemy. Again, without serious consequences to your actions (or the ability to remove someone causing problems), the game falls apart.

Also maybe including something like dying of old age, so that everyone dies eventually and it's not just a partial "game over"?

I really like this idea, and I would implement it in a heartbeat if I didn't feel that it would hurt the game's popularity. I wanted to make a "realistic survival simulation sandbox whatever" game. Realistically, however... Well, we wanted to make the game accessible to everyone, and not fit in a particular niche.

If I worked really hard to build up a lot of skills and belongings and so forth and then got killed by some jerk who surprised me and managed to get a lucky hit, I'd probably ragequit instantly rather than making a new character.

New characters have a cheaper Influence cost to unlock skills than more advanced players, so it shouldn't be too hard to get to a point where you have a perfectly capable character. In a game where death loss is massive, we tried to make it easy to pick up and start again without feeling like it's the end of the world. But consider that everyone would be playing by the same rules - that jerk could easily die as well.

Although I am worried that the game will attract griefers. It sounds like the sort of thing that needs the right player base to be fair.
"will pay harshly for angering the community, and gives the community the power to 'remove' unwanted players."
By which time the Griefer will already have run off laughing and not care. They would probably just "remove" themselves in some cases.

Well, that giefer might lose their character, and then not be able to take certain actions. I'm not sure why they "wouldn't care". Also, there will be the potential for various lists, probably running off of account name, to be made to keep track of bad players. Again, the tools provided to the community will allow pretty much anything you can think of. If a character is simply exiled from every civilized area in the world, he wouldn't be able to do much griefing.

Also yes the "Remove unwanted players" is something that did raise a few alarm bells.

Removing a character who is an obstacle to you is what this means. That could break down into - you have things I want, I keel you. Or - you aren't wanted in the game world as you exist. We throw you into the arena.

[majikero]

Can you automate certain processes? Like say, I'm a baker and most of the community's bread comes from me but I won't be playing for the next few days. Can I automate the process so that my character still makes bread even without my input?

This is pay-to-play right? What happens if my baker suddenly stops baking bread for the community?

[Sappho]

Well, that giefer might lose their character, and then not be able to take certain actions. I'm not sure why they "wouldn't care". Also, there will be the potential for various lists, probably running off of account name, to be made to keep track of bad players. Again, the tools provided to the community will allow pretty much anything you can think of. If a character is simply exiled from every civilized area in the world, he wouldn't be able to do much griefing.

They "wouldn't care" if their main objective is to annoy other players. Your assumption is that people who are playing the game are doing so because they want to play the game. Sadly, many people play a game (yes, even a pay to play one - there are far too many people with disposable income and nothing better to do with their lives) simply because they like the opportunity to cause trouble for other real-life people. They're willing to put in a certain amount of time and effort to get to a point where they're able to do that. And if you get an entire group of people willing to put in that effort together so that they can exert as much influence on the game world as possible, which might include surrounding every starting point with areas that a new player can't access due to their laws, they can ruin the entire world for everyone.

I would love to play the game you are describing, I just fear these people who make it their life's mission to cause other people as much difficulty as possible (presumably to compensate for the powerlessness they feel in their real lives). To them, it's not a world that their character lives in, it's just a system of programmable rules which they can master and use to their advantage. I can't imagine a perfect system for stopping these types of people, which is why most games don't have permadeath.

Here's another way of looking at it: why do you want permadeath? What is the advantage or the goal of it? If it's simply for realism's sake with no other purpose, then there's no point to having it in the game - if we wanted a perfect real world, we'd go outside. If the goal is to punish players who are aggressive towards others, you can be sure that they will suffer less from permadeath than the honest players (especially if it's as easy as you say to regain power in the game after dying). They will kill much more often than they will be killed. And if they do get killed, they will not be upset about it. They'll just create a new character, go through the simple process of getting strong enough to kill again (something they will surely master very quickly) and do it all over again. Meanwhile, the honest players are upset about their characters being dead and having to start again.

A player with an outlaw character with in-game motivations will have a reason to be careful in the world and not risk losing everything. But a griefer who doesn't care about the game and only wants to infuriate other people will not be deterred by permadeath. Sadly, aside from handpicking players (which I understand isn't feasible for a MMO), I can't think of any way to really stop these people, and I think that's where most MMOs with permadeath end up going wrong and losing their honest players when they grow tired of being killed for no reason.

I guess what I'm feeling so far is that I would love to play this game, but without permadeath, unless the permadeath system were changed to offer some benefit rather than just loss. With permadeath I'd still be interested as long as the playerbase remained positive, but as soon as griefers started causing trouble, I'd probably quit immediately and save my money for something else.

Also, you say you're trying to avoid "cliques rule the world" game mechanics, but you also have several systems in place that will make it necessary to interact and cooperate with other players. In what way are you avoiding cooperative groups ruling the world?

One other thought, after reading more carefully through the kickstarter page: you say that your character will still remain in the game world when you're not logged in. Does this mean you can be killed when you're not even online?

Thanks for answering all these questions. I want to get excited about this game, I'm just haunted by my experiences in other ones.