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Author Topic: Education  (Read 5572 times)

Scoops Novel

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Re: Education
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2012, 07:27:32 pm »

Improving it outside of the first world might be an idea.
I'll just send all education funds to Africa then./joke
 
I read that and thought you were clever-bot. Backing away slowly.
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misko27

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Re: Education
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2012, 07:28:31 pm »

Improving it outside of the first world might be an idea.
I'll just send all education funds to Africa then./joke
 
I read that and thought you were clever-bot. Backing away slowly.
Now I want to see what Cleverbot has to say on the subject.

EDIT:http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=119956.45 Where I learn Clever bot is in favor of Nap time.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 08:10:47 pm by misko27 »
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Helgoland

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Re: Education
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2012, 08:45:17 pm »

Education could use more practical stuff.  Like finance and nutrition.

And frankly a lot of math should probably be an elective.  So much of it seemed so pointless when I was in school because you couldn't see what it was used for, and the teachers never even try to tell you what its for.  Trying to remember something that you can't see a reason for was really hard for me.  They could just teach more applied math in physics and computer science classes instead.

I also think most of the science classes should be non-elective.  I managed to get through high school only taking one science class, which seems ridiculous.

Some sort of finance class should also be mandatory.  A lot of people don't even know the basics of investing, taxes and debt.  I sure didn't went I left high school.
Well, when I was in school it often happened that our physics teacher would go " You haven't done that in math yet, so we're just gonna do this on an intuitive level." You can imagine my rage, my subsequent reation to my physics teacher and his reaction when I got the best score possible on my final exam :P
But yeah: Make economics, ohysics, and mathematics mandatoy until you finish school (need to understand how science, economics and how explaining these two work) mandatory alongside - and this is necessary for a good education - english (or whatever is the local language), one foreign language and one artistic (music, art as in stuff in museums oor advanced literature) class.
The lower classes (please do not be offended) need to be educated too!
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i2amroy

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Re: Education
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2012, 09:17:06 pm »

I would like to see more opportunities for people in high school or even lower to take trade classes. When I was in high school, (ten years and more ago) the school I attended had an auto program, a graphic design program, and culinary arts. All of those have since been dropped, along with most arts electives. They were popular programs, but they didn't fit in with the direction the state wanted to go. A lot of schools that I know of have dropped skilled trades.
Gotta agree with this here. Trade schools could be a big help. I mean look at Germany's school program for example. Sure it's got a fair amount of things that are bad about it, but it does have the advantage that if someone decides to be a auto mechanic or something like that then they can go to trade school and learn to be an auto mechanic. The majority of students won't go to college, so why are we still trying to force them all? Why not try to teach them about what they are actually going to do instead of things they will never use once they graduate high school?

Would you rather educate ten idiots or one gifted person? Considering they're all voters, I think it's more important to educate the masses than the elite.
The thing is that with the way schools work it's not a 10 idiots for 1 smart person, it's 10 smart people for 10 idiots. And consider this; the average person will not use any math above algebra in their life, and many won't even use that. Teachers other then math teachers, people in the food business, farmers, mechanics, actors, artists, journalists, editors, historians, judges, lawyers, musicians, psychologists, and secretaries won't use any math other then the amount needed to balance their finances. Carpenters, metalworkers, and other building people will use some basic geometry and algebra, with nothing higher then that. Why should we be struggling to teach advanced algebra to people that will never touch it again in their lives when we could instead be teaching calculus to the people who will go out and become our engineers and scientists? There are hundreds of intelligent people who drop out or flunk every year because "school isn't challenging enough" or "all the teachers treat me like an idiot" or various other reasons. Raising the average level of all of the lower level workers is a great thing to do, but if it comes at the cost of not having any lawyers, engineers, or scientists then you are going to start running into problems very quickly. If you don't encourage the schooling of people who are going to be making the new advances in 20 years then some other country is going to step up and do it instead.

I'd believe the thread is about U.S. mostly, but if you want to talk about comparing to a different countries education or some of the best/worst things about them then I'm sure we could work it into the discussion. :)
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varnish

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Re: Education
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2012, 09:38:18 pm »

I can only talk about the US myself. That's all I have experience with. And I know very little about private schools.

There's very
I would like to see more opportunities for people in high school or even lower to take trade classes. When I was in high school, (ten years and more ago) the school I attended had an auto program, a graphic design program, and culinary arts. All of those have since been dropped, along with most arts electives. They were popular programs, but they didn't fit in with the direction the state wanted to go. A lot of schools that I know of have dropped skilled trades.
Gotta agree with this here. Trade schools could be a big help. I mean look at Germany's school program for example. Sure it's got a fair amount of things that are bad about it, but it does have the advantage that if someone decides to be a auto mechanic or something like that then they can go to trade school and learn to be an auto mechanic. The majority of students won't go to college, so why are we still trying to force them all? Why not try to teach them about what they are actually going to do instead of things they will never use once they graduate high school?

There's still some stigma attached to skilled trades in the US, I think, where doing anything other than the four year college route is seen as a kind of failure, at least if you are middle class. That needs to be addressed. Becoming an auto mechanic, or an electrician, or a carpenter or any other trade is no failure, especially if it's something you want to do.

More options for study within schools, less reliance on flawed state-wide tests that don't really measure much of anything... There's a lot of things I would like to see changed.

The way people are talking about "stupid" and "gifted" students in here is honestly starting to piss me off. You can't easily divide up people like that, for fucks sake.
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XXSockXX

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Re: Education
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2012, 09:50:29 pm »

I mean look at Germany's school program for example. Sure it's got a fair amount of things that are bad about it...

What do you think is bad about german schools? I don't know much about the US system except for how it is portrayed in the media or fiction and that looks really horrible (but is probably not too close to reality ;)).

[...]historians[...] won't use any math other then the amount needed to balance their finances.

Ever tried to date medieval documents? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiction
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Xantalos

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Re: Education
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2012, 09:55:42 pm »

PTW just for duty's sake.
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i2amroy

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Re: Education
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2012, 10:09:55 pm »

The way people are talking about "stupid" and "gifted" students in here is honestly starting to piss me off. You can't easily divide up people like that, for fucks sake.
I personally apologize for using the word idiot in comparison to gifted. When replaced with the word "normal" the point still stands though. Gifted people are different in the sense that there are physical differences in their brains that cause psychological differences in them. Just as you can separate a mentally handicapped person from a normal person (through either a physical look at their brain or observing their actions) so too can you separate a gifted person from a normal one. And just like how schools will separate out their Special Education programs from their normal schooling, it also needs to be said that you need to separate out the gifted people from the normal ones if you want them to work at their full potential. If you stuck a math genius into a basic algebra class what is going to happen? He's going to get bored, probably goof off, potentially get in trouble or maybe even fail because he sees no reason to do the work. "If He already knows it, why is he stuck listening to the same thing over and over again?" Gifted people can be separated from normal ones, just as handicapped people can be. (Though of course it is still completely possible to be "a little gifted" just as it is possible to be "a little handicapped". There are even people out there who are "double-gifted" which means that they are similar to savants in that they can very easily and quickly grasp some topics, while still functioning at a SpEd level if others).

I mean look at Germany's school program for example. Sure it's got a fair amount of things that are bad about it...
What do you think is bad about german schools? I don't know much about the US system except for how it is portrayed in the media or fiction and that looks really horrible (but is probably not too close to reality ;)).
The big problem that I have with German (and several other EU countries) schools is the tests that separate out those who go to trade school from those who go to gymnasium and the various other separation level tests. I mean it's a wonderful idea and I agree with the concept, but I also believe that there is a very thin line to walk between "stopping you from going into these careers and directing you towards the trades to help you" and "you failed this test so you can't do that job regardless of the fact that it is your lifelong dream". Personally I think that it might be a good idea to introduce just a little more option to be able to switch from one track to another, so just because back when you are 10 and ended up getting put into Hauptschule doesn't necessarily mean you can't go to university by working your butt off.

Quote
[...]historians[...] won't use any math other then the amount needed to balance their finances.
Ever tried to date medieval documents? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiction
My bad. I'm not too much of a history person (since I have a terrible head for dates and names). :P
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PyroDesu

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Re: Education
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2012, 10:21:14 pm »

If you stuck a math genius into a basic algebra class what is going to happen? He's going to get bored, probably goof off, potentially get in trouble or maybe even fail because he sees no reason to do the work. "If He already knows it, why is he stuck listening to the same thing over and over again?"

Thus is the case with me. I've failed classes and am failing classes because I see no reason to do the work. Excellent test and quiz scores, but the weight placed on homework slaughters that. I got a 4 (out of 5) on a college-grade biology test in the 9th grade, but nearly failed the AP class altogether because of the busywork. As far as I'm aware, I am one of two, maybe three people in that class that even passed, and my score was the highest.

Minor anecdote aside, NCLB really is what's killing us (along with the fact that you cannot get rid of bad teachers). Teachers are having to teach to the test (which have unique standards for each state, a great test score in one state may be miserable in another), not in such a way that the student learns, and all classes of kids, from normal, to those who can't care less, to the gifted that can grasp complex topics in a day or two (like me), to those who think it is fun to disrupt the class for no reason whatsoever.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 10:28:21 pm by PyroDesu »
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XXSockXX

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Re: Education
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2012, 10:28:00 pm »

Personally I think that it might be a good idea to introduce just a little more option to be able to switch from one track to another, so just because back when you are 10 and ended up getting put into Hauptschule doesn't necessarily mean you can't go to university by working your butt off.

Right, that's what most people see as a big problem. It has changed a lot however in the last 10 years or so and the different schools get more and more blended together. Hauptschule is disappearing, since employers basically don't accept the degree anymore except for a few professions. The tendency is clearly towards Gesamtschule which in theory (sometimes still only on paper) should give everybody the chance to switch tracks.
The cost is however as has been mentioned above in the thread that everything gets a bit dumbed down, so that more kids get better degrees, while there is less done for more gifted kids.

[...]historians[...] won't use any math other then the amount needed to balance their finances.
Ever tried to date medieval documents? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiction
[/quote]
My bad. I'm not too much of a history person (since I have a terrible head for dates and names). :P
[/quote]
It's probably ridiculously easy for many people, but my headache indicates advanced mathematics.
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Telgin

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Re: Education
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2012, 10:30:36 pm »

There's still some stigma attached to skilled trades in the US, I think, where doing anything other than the four year college route is seen as a kind of failure, at least if you are middle class. That needs to be addressed. Becoming an auto mechanic, or an electrician, or a carpenter or any other trade is no failure, especially if it's something you want to do.

More options for study within schools, less reliance on flawed state-wide tests that don't really measure much of anything... There's a lot of things I would like to see changed.

Agreed on both of these.  The stigma needs to go, and the general idea of educating to defeat the standardized tests seems backward to me.

As far as the actual education goes, I don't think that the math should really be made optional.  Algebra at least should still be taught.  People don't realize how useful algebra is.  You use it all the time without thinking about it.  Perhaps that's the problem: more focus on practical application is definitely a good thing.  More science isn't a bad thing either.  Geometry, trigonometry and calculus are a bit more difficult to defend in this respect.  In college I found everything up through differential equations fascinating, but have yet to find an application of anything past simple differentiation in practice.

I saw a suggestion on teaching less English, and I wish I could agree.  I think instead the focus should change.  Instead of literature, make sure people actually understand the language..  I once helped correct a stack of essays in a 12th grade class, and I was stunned at how awful the spelling and grammar were.  I don't think it's a fluke either: I see terrible spelling and grammar everywhere.  Not just online where people use shorthand, but everwhere.

I don't know, as a whole I don't know what the solution is if there is anything approaching a simple solution.  Making school interesting is the key I think, but I don't know how.  At least not for everyone.  I'd have found opportunities to learn cool things like programming great, but that's certainly not for everyone.  The standardized tests I think are also mostly pointless, but I don't know what metric should replace them.
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varnish

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Re: Education
« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2012, 10:36:55 pm »

The way people are talking about "stupid" and "gifted" students in here is honestly starting to piss me off. You can't easily divide up people like that, for fucks sake.
I personally apologize for using the word idiot in comparison to gifted. When replaced with the word "normal" the point still stands though.

Genuine thank you for the apology. Sorry if I was rude, I forget to think before I type sometimes.

I kind of can go along with some of the other things you said, but I still think it's a very problematic area. I would like to see students have the opportunity to study the things they excel at and are interested in, regardless of whether they are "gifted" or not.
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Frumple

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Re: Education
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2012, 11:20:23 pm »

Genuine thank you for the apology. Sorry if I was rude, I forget to think before I type sometimes.

I kind of can go along with some of the other things you said, but I still think it's a very problematic area. I would like to see students have the opportunity to study the things they excel at and are interested in, regardless of whether they are "gifted" or not.
Hey, have a rant: Mm... a lot of the problem with specialized per-student curriculum, which in broad strokes is the direction you're suggesting to go toward (and it's a damn, damn good idea, because there's basically jack nothing as effective in regards to education) is, well, logistical. We don't really have the number of teachers (raw numbers), nor the type of teachers (training), nor the classrooms (space), nor, really, the equipment and infrastructure (materials in general, venues outside of straight classrooms for education possibilities), we need to be able to move towards something like that, outside of very specific, generally very specialized situations -- I've personally only seen that sort of thing in special ed programs and adult education, and to a large degree that was only because the ones I'm familiar with had some really damn good teachers heading them. A lot of the things we're trying to do now, from what I've seen, would work if we set up the environment we're trying to accomplish it in so that it can. But we don't.

Kind of the sundry list. If you're going to get genuinely top-notch and better students, you need a smaller student/teacher ratio, period. Mid-teens or thereabouts have been about the highest I've seen genuinely work. Anything much higher than that and a single teacher just doesn't have the goddamn time in the day to be able to do what needs to be done, and so things like "teaching to the test" happen, because they've gotta' do something and it's the best way they have in the situation they're forced in to help the students. Current best practice I've personally seen is something my mother does, who teaches adult education (actual adults, as well as drop-outs and drop-overs) -- she's got it scheduled so even though she's got a good 40-50 students in a semester, there's generally only a dozen at most in the classroom at any one time, generally less. Students are staggered across hours in general (so you'd maybe have half before lunch, half after, or groups moving in and out every quarter day or so.) and may only attend her class a few times a week. Scaling it up would take juggling beyond me, and definitely more classrooms (and almost certainly more teachers), but outside of resource issues I couldn't say why we shouldn't.

Training's another big issue, because education is goddamn complicated if you're going to do it right and you need both theoretical and fairly extensive practical experience before you get thrown to the wolves. Not to mention that a good teacher is going to have a certain degree of support personnel, so to speak (most don't, in the schools I've seen. Teacher has a hard time teaching when they're spending a quarter of their waking hours doing paperwork instead of teaching.). Biggest issue I've seen here is that the proper education needed to really excell as a teacher is both expensive and time consuming, and teaching itself generally seems to pay pretty poorly in the states. We don't seem to have the system we really need to be able to produce and support good teachers, nor entice or enable people to really go at it full tilt, and that's a pretty damn big deal.

Space is pretty obvious, and comes on two fronts. The first is size -- as insinuated, 30+ student classes with only a single teacher does not god damn work. Everyone involved in that is getting shortchanged in regards to education, almost regardless to what the subject is. Second is, if you will, ergonomics. Most classrooms I've seen are flatly fucking uncomfortable, which is basically a flat out sin if you're going to stick children in one for hours on end (though it's generally just as bad in higher education), nevermind the teacher. They also have to make concessions due to student volume that makes material presentation sub-par for a lot of people involved. If we had the resources and the will, we could fix this. We know the psychology of education to a pretty damn extensive degree these days, and if we wanted to design a classroom actually built from the ground up to facilitate learning, we could. Why we don't, I don't know. Best guess is resource issues, either physical (cash money, buildings, etc.) or technical (people who know how to do that. We've got them, but certainly not enough to cover the needs of the entire country.).

Materials and infrastructure are sumbitch issues. Most textbooks I've seen are shite, especially for teaching younger or less focused individuals. We could fix it -- we've got the know-how. I don't know why we don't -- and I mean that literally. If anyone's got an idea on that front, I'd love to hear more about it. Bringing in a great deal more of societal involvement would likely produce tremendous benefit as well -- we need greater involvement from our trades, to bring kids in and see what work gets done, from our sciences, from our arts. Maybe it's more involved in other areas, but where I'm at it didn't happen much. But it's a pretty simple concept -- you doing basic algebra this week? Go to a workplace or non-profit organization that uses it, and do the teaching there. Other than american society in general kinda' not giving a shit about education, and possibly the disruption it'd cause in a workplace (though you could work around that, damnit, if you wanted to), this is another one of those, "I don't know why the hell we're not doing this" kinda' things.

... didn't really intend to rant, but... whatever. tl;dr form, and possibly not fully explicated in that mess -- letting students study the things they excel and are interested in -- and, just as importantly, figuring out what that is -- is a really tremendously huge project. I wish we'd throw people at it until it happened.

But... frankly? We have the people on the ground that know exactly what the hell's going wrong, and we've got the people on the ground that know how the hell to fix it, and I have no bloody idea why the hell we're having such trouble getting those people together and saying, "Get this shit done, me buckos." I'd probably be able to figure out some of the blockage if I stopped to think (nasty suspicion that good ol'American anti-intellectualism is raising its head a bit, ferex.), but for now... have all that above.
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i2amroy

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Re: Education
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2012, 11:28:22 pm »

In response to Frumple:
I think one of the major things that is causing some of the problems you are outlining, and was actually touched upon by magic_gambit a while back is that the people who are the heads of schools (either the school administration, or ultimately the school board members) usually aren't and never have been teachers. As a result you get a bunch of older lawyers and businessmen, none of whom have an actual clue about teaching but all that think they do, designating the funds as well as what they all go to. If we simply took all of the politicians out of teaching and replaced them with people who actually had teaching experience, I think we might get a lot more done.
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Thecard

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Re: Education
« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2012, 11:31:59 pm »

First of all, teachers get paid jack shit, and that ain't right.
Second, English (or whatever the official language is where you live) is important, literacy is the foundation for all knowledge.
Third, people learn at different speeds, classes should reflect that.
Fourth, graphic imaging really should be counted as an arts class.  It isn't where I live, despite it being, y'know, artistic.
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