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[Cobbler89]

"Therleth, what happened? Therleth? THERLEEEEEEEEEETH!!!"

*eeeesshshhhrrrrow dun-dun-DUN* GAME OVER

...Okay, sorry, I know that adds nothing that the comment about action movies didn't already.

[GreatWyrmGold]

If the game is supposed to be realistic..

Oh not this realistic argument.  Paa-leese.(rolleyes)
-snip-

Dwarf Fortress is a fantasy universe, but Toady has made it as realistic as possible.
Also, you've got it backwards. This isn't about dwarves snapping minotaur necks, this is about minotaurs (or fellow dwarves) snapping dwrven necks. À sufficiently insane adventurer might try to snap a minotaur's neck, but it shouldn't succeed.

[Damiac]

Heh, yeah, exactly.  Realistic within the fantasy setting. 
So, the bunny (obviously) cannot snap a dwarf limb, which once again, is already in the game.  But why shouldn't a dwarf be able to snap the bunny's neck? Instead of what we have now, where he just has to strangle it.

So the same would apply to wrestling monsters, like ogres and minotaurs, where they would just snap the dwarf's neck once he had him in a hold.

Knutor, you're acting like we're asking for a whole new combat system.  Wrestling is already in the game.  There's already joint locks and breaks.  The only new thing is a logical extension, to allow the neck to also be wrestled, and broken.  I agree that armor should hinder joint breaks (as far as I know it doesn't, currently), so if a new joint were added to break, armor should also play a role in that.  Strength is already a factor in wrestling.

What intelligent combatant would want to hug something with sharp teeth when a boot stomp would suffice?  I would hope none of my dwarfs. 

If this was going to happen, it already happens.

Please, if you're going to argue against it, don't just troll the idea, come up with a logical argument Knutor.

[10ebbor10]

Internally consistent behavious is what you're looking for.

[Damiac]

Yeah, internally consistant, but it's based on models of real life physics. So it's not entirely farfetched to call that realistic.  There are dragons and minotaurs, so realistic in a fantasy setting. 

[knutor]

I find it far fetched.  Yup.  We don't need realistic examples, we both have the game on our HDs.  Use in-game examples.

Without including a clear and precise 'A killed B' message, adding chokes just appears fruitless.  When... The game already includes tendons and arteries in the upper spine, I don't see how this would improve things.  Its already sufficiently represented. 

From what I can see this is a suggestion to change the combat verbatim.  How would what is being suggested be any different from an upper spine artery/tendon sever?  Maybe I'm just not understanding.

Called shot from ambush?  I could agree with that, sure.  Nonlethal sapping is loads of fun in RPGs, its a fun crowd controller.  I am not sure I like the suggestion if its supposed to hamper dwarfs in combat.  I oppose it, then.  Why?  Because observe seems to not work or progress far too slowly, during fortress play as things stand, presently. 

Hunters, dozens of loose cats and dogs, would be mez'd or stun'd for months on end.  Because of one undetected Kobold Sapper.  I could enjoy it to some degree, if it was balanced, but as Fortress mode is now with its stealth so unbalanced, Nah.  *thumbsdown*  Sincerely, Knutor

[GreatWyrmGold]

Um, are you sure you're posting in the right thread?

[knutor]

I lʘʘked.

[Damiac]

Knutor, we're talking about adding in ONE joint.  The neck.  Standard wrestling joint attacks can now target this ONE new joint. 

Choking is already in the game.  So your Kobold sapper example doesn't apply, as it would already be happening if it was an issue.  Plus, the second that Kobold attacked, he would be revealed, as all sneaking creatures always are when they are within 3 tiles of one of your creatures. 

All this would add is the ability to joint lock the neck, then bend (and snap) the neck, leading to upper spine injury, leading to death.
It would use all the same rules as all the other joint locks and breaks already use. 

I don't know how to make this any clearer.  I'm starting to think I should just write you off as a troll and stop trying to explain this, since you seem to be going out of your way not to understand. 

[knutor]

Another reason this suggestion deserves a -1, came to my mind, after I learned I was a forum troll. 

Damiac's suggestion here, must be an adventure mode ONLY suggestion.  Because it certainly doesn't apply to the chaos which results in fortress mode battles. 

Dorf 1 applies a wrestling lock to the neck.
Dorf 2 severs a major artery in the upperspine.
Dorf 3 severs the upperspine and it sails off in an arc.
Dorf 1 bends and snaps a puff of air.
Dorf 3 points at Dorf 1 and chuckles.

I crossed out what the game already does, in order to focus in on Damiac's nonlethal wrestling-lock-and-break-the-neck suggestion.

All this would add is the ability to joint lock the neck, then bend (and snap) the neck, leading to upper spine injury, leading to death.

FACT:  DF combat already has severed tendons and broken arteries in the upperspine.

How is a joint lock and a bend and a snap to the 'neck', anything more than what the above FACT describes.  Breaking bones or pressuring joints seems unimportant to in fights to the death, once the veins feeding the brain blood and windpipe feeding the lungs air are removed from the picture, why exert the effort, once that is achieved? 

Game needs a clear death message.  So the player knows from scroll who was awarded the kill, or choke.  I reserve the right to flip-flop and support Damiac's cause, after that is done.  Sincerely, Knutor

[loose nut]

The biggest question is if neck-snapping works outside of action films.

Well, aside from humanoids, there are predators that kill by breaking the neck of their prey, so this would be a good thing to implement on that basis alone. And, in terms of humanoids, this sort of thing should make trolls and other large to very large humanoids a bit more dangerous, which I think is a good thing. Anyway, I approve of this suggestion.

[Damiac]

Dorf 1 applies a wrestling lock to the neck.
Dorf 2 severs a major artery in the upperspine.
Dorf 3 severs the upperspine and it sails off in an arc.
Dorf 1 bends and snaps a puff of air.
Dorf 3 points at Dorf 1 and chuckles.

Ok.. you've got 3 dwarves here.  Dwarf 1 is actually not doing anything.
Now, the new version.
Dorf 1 applies a wrestling lock to the neck.
Dorf 1 bends the neck.
The neck is broken
The upper spine is broken

Dwarf 2 and 3 do something else

FACT:  DF combat already has severed tendons and broken arteries in the upperspine.

Yep.  So now those severed tendons and broken arteries could be achieved via wrestling.  Probably not terribly useful to dwarves in fortress mode, more useful to the creatures wrestling against them generally.  But, the neck is in actuality a joint.  Which can be broken. Via wresting.  So why not allow it in the game?

Game needs a clear death message.  So the player knows from scroll who was awarded the kill, or choke.  I reserve the right to flip-flop and support Damiac's cause, after that is done.  Sincerely, Knutor

While clear death messages would be nice, they have absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.  And, once again, creatures can already be choked to death. FACT:  DF combat already has choking.     So the confusion in the logs you're complaining about already exists.  Plus, a neck breaking event would be much more obvious in the logs anyway. 

[knutor]

Dorf 1 applies a wrestling lock to the neck.
Dorf 2 severs a major artery in the upperspine.
Dorf 3 severs the upperspine and it sails off in an arc.
Dorf 1 bends and snaps a puff of air.
Dorf 3 points at Dorf 1 and chuckles.

Ok.. you've got 3 dwarves here.  Dwarf 1 is actually not doing anything.
Now, the new version.
Dorf 1 applies a wrestling lock to the neck.
Dorf 1 bends the neck.
The neck is broken
The upper spine is broken

Dwarf 2 and 3 do something else

Lets say Dorf 1 arrives first, like ya say there.  Instead of simultaneously.  Where will Dorf 1 drop his gear at, his shield and weapon, in order to perform the necklock hold?

Let me apply some real world physics. A necklock cannot be performed while holding a shield and a weapon.  Correct?  So Dorf 1, will have to have a special unarmed, unshielded uniform.  No Problem.  Done.

I'm not sure I want a first responder to show up without a shield.  But that aside, lets carry on.  Isn't a necklock a move to be performed on the mat.  Unless performed from surprise.

Well without surprise, I don't see how a mobile entity can be necklocked to death.   

Dorf 2 and Dorf 3 will kill acceptably upon first move using real world physics without the need to trip, subdue.  While I'd like to tell Dorf 2 and Dorf 3 to do something else, they do what the AI makes them and that is kill the target.

The first joints an unarmed, martial artist breaks are wrists and feet.  After that, the neck becomes accessible.  Unless of course its a back strike from surprise.  Which I am perfectly fine, this being.  I'd like DF to have a necklock from the back.  But not lethal.

So why not allow it in the game?

I'd like to see it in the game.  Under the condition, it not be lethal.  And that a traction bench could repair it.  The victim would have to be brought back to the hospital on a wheelbarrel of course, be a nice use of a new feature.  Carrying him would sever the spine irreparably.

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While clear death messages would be nice, they have absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.It's not my goal to hijack your thread.  My sincere apology.

FACT:  DF combat already has choking.

We are talking about a joint break or a choke?  Because if we are talking about a choke, I'm fine with that.  My concern is with the joint break.  Joint breaks cause brain death as a result of lack of blood in arteries, chokes cause suffocation.  My confusion is that the upperspine in DF, already receives severe artery breaks.  Maybe like you say, not from wrestling attacks.  But it does from normal strikes.

No matter how I look at the neck joint, I just cannot see it as an available target, until after the battle has proceeded a little bit, unless attacked from the rear.  Entities just don't let entities perform wrestling moves on their upperspine, right below their gaping maw.  Especially entities with armor and the ability to bite.

[Damiac]

There have already been several reasons given for when it would be useful.  You're purposely ignoring them and coming up with ridiculous scenarios, then saying it's not useful because of those ridiculous scenarios.  Obviously, a dwarf will not drop his weapon to wrestle.  You are aware that wrestling is actually already in the game, right? And it doesn't cause those sorts of problems.

So, for the last time, an example of how it would work, and make sense:
An Ogre is already in the game, and will already grab and wrestle your dwarves.  That ogre, instead of breaking the dwarf's leg, arm, and whatever else, now can break the dwarf's neck.  This is likely to sever the upper spine, causing the related issues with breathing and so on, killing the dwarf.  It would likely only be successful when a larger entity is wrestling a smaller entity, like ogre vs dwarf, or dwarf vs rabbit, and so on.

Just because wrestling is not terribly useful to dwarves in fortress mode doesn't mean neck breaking shouldn't be implemented.  Not everything in the game is there just for your dwarves in fortress mode.

[knutor]

It would likely only be successful when a larger entity is wrestling a smaller entity, like ogre vs dwarf, or dwarf vs rabbit, and so on.

Did you mean to say ONLY?  Hmm.  I thought this was to occur whenever it presented itself. 

On a jovial note.  What about Ogre vs Rabbit?  Swallow Whole?  HA!

Okay, I'm fine with this example.  As long as it doesn't progress into becoming a lethal attack. 

Why?  Well you see I don't want to void existing code.  The game tracks victorious kills a weapon earns, for various unknown reasons.  I guess for naming, slayer bonuses, artifact making, and engravings.  *shrug*

With a wrestling hold doing more than a knockdown, and immobilization, wouldn't that negate the entire line of code, that collects kill data on weapons?  If this can be avoided, sure, I'll agree, it sounds like a good suggestion.  If it cannot, necklock is a one mode furball.