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[Smashness]

I was wondering why we don't have the ability to break necks via wrestling. I think it would be a good addition to the realistic value of DF, and could also be balanced by requiring a high Wrestling skill to actually succeed.

I'm only suggesting this because the immersion kinda breaks when you have to slowly beat someone to death after you've snuck up on them, and they magically don't notice themselves dying.

[Damiac]

Since you can break other joints, it does seem like you should be able to break necks, especially on an unaware opponent.

[NAV]

Good suggestion. The tread title could be more descriptive though.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Good suggestion. The tread title could should be more descriptive though.

Agreed.

[knutor]

Isn't a neck, just the upper spine? 

I don't like the suggestion.  Wrestling is not a lethal act.  It is for subduing and limiting mobility.  Wrestling progressing no further into the martial realm than that, is pleasurable for me. 

If unarmed combat did proceed there, it would and could, marginalize weaponsmithing and overvalue gauntlets and boots as weapons. 

Not saying these are bad things, but I am just tossing a warning out.  While variety is nice, obsoleting entire chapters of combat code, is not nice. 

I'm against neck breaking on the basis of confusion.  If a kill line was introduced into the battle scroll, I maybe inclined to favor it.  As things stand, its hard to tell when the battle ends and the beer guzzling begins.

[i2amroy]

Personally I like the idea being incorporated into vanilla DF. At the moment though you can add it fairly easily by adding the [JOINT] token to the neck in the body raws.

[Damiac]

Uhh... ever been wrestled by a minotaur or a cyclops? It's a lethal act when they throw you into a wall.

If you could joint lock and break the neck, it wouldn't make weapon skills useless. It would just make wrestling slightly less useless.

What other consequences would there be to adding the joint token to the neck? Would that change the way armor coverage works for the head and chest?

[GreatWyrmGold]

The biggest question is if neck-snapping works outside of action films.

[10ebbor10]

Pretty sure it works. Question is how effective it should be.

[knutor]

More complication, in a gamelog.txt, full of difficult scroll to read, already, doesn't attract me.  If a minotaur or cyclops were to disarm me, and I would have to resort to rapping my arms around its neck, I would think shouting for assistance or another weapon.. a wise decision. 

Of course, putting stubby arms near a large entities pie hole, does sound dwarfy.  Could maybe bring a toothpick to assist.  I'm sure it would like its teeth cleaned after a neck massage.

A complication comes to my mind immediately with lethal wrestling holds.  Wouldn't the game pause, for a dwarf trying to establish a bone crushing hold or pressure on a hot surface, say a dragon's neck.  That would be a warm surface, correct?

Another complication would be the strength factor.  The overwhelming value required for the act to succeed would be what? 1000+ the victims muscle, fat and strength. Helmets would make this easier, but would a breastplate with a collar or an exposed spine/ribcage, and what about owls or flexible fellas with a really high agility?  Twist all ya like, and they just look more more sinister. 

It'd feel a little odd, having a bouncing bunny snapping a seasoned vet's neck. 

Or having a seasoned vet, snap a skeleton's neck, just to have the skeleton smile and reanimate into two parts.  Then return the snap, making two more animated dead for his cause...  Then having a jet propelled headless body zip around the battlefield, snapping more heads off. 

Nah!  *thumbsdown*  Unless more testing is somehow willingly performed without harming pixels in the process.  Just seems to me, lethal acts need more.. indication in the gamelog.txt, than there currently is. 

So many things fall over, and get back up.  There needs an incinerate move, like with a flaming weapon or a ray of moon/sunshine.  Not a choke, or neck snap.  In order to thwart the scourge.  Balance needs addressed before wrestling, imo.  Sincerely, Knutor

[Damiac]

Honestly, your complaints that one new joint for wrestling to attack would wreck the gamelog is a little silly Knutor.  And as far as the game pausing for grabbing hot things, grabbing is already in the game, so if it was a problem, it would already be a problem regardless of whether you can attack the neck or not.  Honestly, I can't even tell if your list of complaints is supposed to be serious or not...

If the game is supposed to be realistic, then it should be possible to perform a neck breaking move in a realistic manner.

Effectiveness is a fair question.  That's why I mentioned sneaking up on something, as it would be much easier to do if just fighting the structural integrity of the neck itself, and not against the creature actively using its muscle to fight against you.

But even ignoring that, for a basic solution, why wouldn't it work the same as any other joint lock and break.  You grab the joint (the neck in this case).  You then lock it.  Then you 'bend' it, breaking it.  The code's already there in the game for strength checks and all that.  So if bunnies don't grab and break your dwarves legs right now, then they aren't going to break your leg either.

I'm not saying it should be like in the movies, where you just make a slight movement and *snap*, they're dead.  But having your neck broken in real life is quite likely to kill you.

[Smashness]

What I'm saying is, I want the neck snapping for the sneaking characters, and I think that instant neck-breaking would be a little harder to apply in actual combat.

I'm not saying it would be an insta-kill, I'm saying the neck would be broken, and they'd either go immediately unconscious, or paralyzed. Most definitely both after a short while, with death by suffocation following close after.

I hope that cleared some things up, (but knowing me, it won't) and thanks for the feedback

[GreatWyrmGold]

Well, normal combat might not have lots of use for neck snaps, but consider the opposite of knutor's idea: A minotaur is fighting a dwarf (or a human is fighting a kobold, or whatever), and grab their opponent's head. Well, at least in the minotaur/dwarf example, I can see the larger combatant flicking its wrist and breaking the little guy's neck.
Given that combat between a few trolls and a single, unarmed, untrained, resting mayor has been recorded as a win for the trolls by dehydration, another way for big people to kill little ones might help...

[knutor]

If the game is supposed to be realistic..

Oh not this realistic argument.  Paa-leese.(rolleyes)  Whens the last time, we honestly can say we saw a dwarf fight a minotaur,  realistically.  Cowboy corralling a steer?  Okay sure, grabbing is in game.  But so is surgery without schooling.  Lots of things are in this game. 

I have to ask you, three questions. 

3. Ever wrestle?  (Y/N)
2. Ever wrestle with body armor? (Y/N)
1. Ever pull apart a mesh scowering pad with bare hands?

There are lots of hand holds when grappling with body armor that are not present otherwise.  Some body armor would aid in a neck snap. 

That is why well made, ☼armor☼ and ☼helmet☼ sometimes secure or sit themselves into the collar and prohibit dangerous levels of torque.  Now some don't, I agree.  A minotaur obviously isn't going to be as bedazzled in armored garb as a dwarf. 

Doesn't this point us right back to the bunny vs vet, example?  I mean what's the overwhelming power difference supposed to be?  Leaving this up to Toady?

Upon losing a weapon the logical thing for a smaller entity to do is find another weapon, a place to hide, or flee the scene.  To reach around a gaping maw of a larger entity to overpower and dislocate, spells disaster in big bold letters.  If a smaller entity without a weapon gets too close to a larger entity, it becomes its next lunch. 

And lastly, the dwarf arms are not tentacles.  They are short, stubby, and end in great big weaner fingers.  Not only that, this suggestion realistically, makes dwarfs weaker, as a bearded foe is far easier to gain torque with, than a clean shaved foe, who keeps his mouth and nostrils shut.  Physics is physics.  Sincerely, Knutor

[knutor]

What intelligent combatant would want to hug something with sharp teeth when a boot stomp would suffice?  I would hope none of my dwarfs. 

It almost sounds like from your first post, that your asking for Sap to be included, as a sneak attack.  That I could rally behind.  But not this other stuff.