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Author Topic: Branching story lines in RPGs  (Read 7344 times)

ductape

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Branching story lines in RPGs
« on: December 02, 2012, 12:37:17 am »

This may be the wrong section, I could move it to Creative Projects but I will drop it here for now.

So yeah, we all know how great it COULD be, but in execution it always feel like your still on rails, it's just that there's a few more rails and maybe a few more endings to see.

You know the games. Knights of the Old Republic, Mass Effect, etc. No need to list them all. We get the point.

The reality for the game developer is that to create a game with diverse and complicated branching story lines and endings built of complicated elements based on players choices throughout the games means that the developer must write buckets of content that is mostly not seen on any given play-through. This means lots of hours of writing and that costs money.

But I wonder, is it really that hard? Might there be some shortcuts or logic systems that would allow the players to have a rich set of choices on any given problem without the full hassle to write each piece individually?

And even if there is no clever way to do it, indeed the developer must literally create each and every branch in all of its glory...how short must the story be for it to even be feasible.

I can imagine an RPG where the players experience is as close to the tabletop experience as can be delivered using multiple choice menus. A complex weave of characters and objects where every decision made affects not only the dispositions of said characters and objects but also the choices and paths available in the menus themselves. In a sense, the epitome of this RPG niche.

To do this for your average RPG would require a tower full of writers chained to their terminals hammering out a dizzying array interwoven story branches, some of which may never be stumbled upon on any play through.

Or would it?

To pull it off, maybe a shorter story would work. How short? How short or concise would it need to be to realistically pull it off?
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Catastrophic lolcats

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Re: Branching story lines in RPGs
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2012, 01:03:30 am »

First of all RPGs have to lose the concept of two tier "moral choices", it's easily the biggest factor in "rail-roading". You can blame Bioware for having us stuck with "being a dick" or "being a saint" sliding scales. Have a much more interesting tier system like D&D's (pre 4.0 abortion) four tiers system (evil, good, neutral, chaotic). If you've played Planescape: Torment you can see that this is generally a much more interesting system. This can help to create an illusion of non-linearity.

Second; as Naxza said full voice acting just isn't viable outside of MASSIVE productions. The classic RPGs were either fully text or a combination text and voice over for a few sentences. This allows for much more variation in a character's dialogue and less looping.
Bioware basically having a monopoly on modern RPGs had enforced a status quo of full voice acting which has had a massive affect on the genre. It's now extremely expensive to create games for the genre and the target audience becoming more niche.

Third; RPGs all subscribe to the concept of "The Hero's Journey". This means that the plot generally has to run through quite a rigid formula which is near impossible to have non-linear and remain interesting and/or moving. The RPGs that are regarded as classics always have a linear "main plot" with a whole bunch of freedom outside of that formula to explore both the world and mechanics.

This segregation of "main plot" and "free world" is both a blessing a curse to the genre. They can either complement each other or completely clash. An example of this working is S.T.A.L.K.E.R. where the "free world" helps to build the atmosphere around the "main plot". A bad example would be Skyrim which "free world" is literally the only thing it has going for it, completely over-riding the "main plot" which is what should be the most enthralling.
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ductape

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Re: Branching story lines in RPGs
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2012, 02:33:27 am »

Good points, but somehow we are talking about some of the recent main stream trends in big budget RPGs.

This is Bay 12 and we love Indy titles and convention busting. In light of that, lets eschew the rigid notions and envision what's possible, eh?

Imagine a small rpg, without a storyline per se. Perhaps it's an old school d&d module. Players start out in the tavern, they hear rumors, events unfold.

If its voice acting, graphics, or any other modern thing hanging us up. Drop it all. Text based, no graphics, built in Ren'Py.

The game engine and the options available in dialogue as well as possible actions in the game world model as closely the variety of creative problem solving that might happen in your average table top RPG. This would have to be within reason if course, players can come up with some pretty zany antics.

It's a lot of options to put in, just in the tavern scene and other locales around town before even getting out into the countryside or even the dungeons. And then in the dungeons, modeling the diversity of options in each encounter.

What about the NPCs, each with real lives going on as the player goes about unraveling the adventure. Treat the whole affair as a bit of a simulation, with stuff happening as the days click by, and the actions of the player may or may not have some affect on how it all plays out.

At the tabletop, the DM has the best computer possible at their disposal, the human mind. To simulate the creativity possible with such a tool will be close to impossible, but it probably is possible to create a game world which lives and breathes and provides deep choices.

So to re-frame it, without worrying about technology stuff such as the voices and graphics and such, can you see it happening? Would you find it to be fun?
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 02:42:12 am by ductape »
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Neonivek

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Re: Branching story lines in RPGs
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2012, 02:41:29 am »

I really have stopped complaining about Linear stories in RPGs mostly because I've seen what a mess the Sandbox has truely been.

The reason most RPGs don't do Branching Story Lines is simply this. It is a lot of work. They often feel like they can either tell one great story or a lot of less good ones.

This doesn't hold up in all cases because many RPGs are based upon branching storylines and in fact do them all very well (Soul Nomad is an interesting case because its main story is kinda boring... but its ONE branching storyline is so good that it should have been a game onto itself). Others don't do them well at all or only give the illusion of branching.

Now Linear however isn't nessisarily the opposite of Sandbox but is often considered so. Oblivion I would argue is in fact incredibly linear because the main questline and all quests for that matter are on very strict tracks.

However let me answer you dirrectly

Quote
But I wonder, is it really that hard? Might there be some shortcuts or logic systems that would allow the players to have a rich set of choices on any given problem without the full hassle to write each piece individually?

In truth. Yes. The shortcut is simply that because you are just altering a single storyline that you don't have to do all the work. Many games are based on this premise where all the branches are required for a full understanding of the plot. The first Way of the Samurai game (not an RPG) in fact was based upon learning from the game in order to achieve the best ending (a sad feat never replicated).

However what those games do is they make one story and allow you to explore only a small part of it. They are games about being one story.

No logic system can accurately replace a "Branching storyline" because in altering the story you are changing the characters, the setting, and the plot. These kinds of changes are not simple they are very complex. When you are creating a game that is multiple stories you are essentially adding a new layer onto a game.

So the shortcuts are as follows
1) Make one story in which each branch is just a small part of the collective story
and
2) Make each branch similar yet different from the seperate branches
and
3) Give the illusion of choice. Make only slight alterations and give different endings anyhow.

Quote
First of all RPGs have to lose the concept of two tier "moral choices", it's easily the biggest factor in "rail-roading".


I disagree. It is actually more psychological then anything (IGNORING games like Infamos and the second Black and White). You don't have to lean to the extremes. In fact I think what hurts it is that we as gamers have a pathological need to go to the extremes of the morality meter. Even though it is ultimately cosmetic.

Quote
You can blame Bioware for having us stuck with "being a dick" or "being a saint" sliding scales. Have a much more interesting tier system like D&D's (pre 4.0 abortion) four tiers system (evil, good, neutral, chaotic). If you've played Planescape: Torment you can see that this is generally a much more interesting system. This can help to create an illusion of non-linearity

They both are vomit enducing systems in their own right.

The Bioware morality system breaks down simply because the moral choices in the game are moral choices in the sense that you often can decide to do something terrible for the sake of being terrible or good for the sake of being good. It takes the character out of being a logical person who may or may not want to do good in this world into someone who is vying for the Saint of Fluffy Bunnies. It simplified morality.

Dungeons and Dragons fails however simply by how the rules are just uttar nonsense. In order to understand this you have to know something about logic and human psychology but I'll give it to you quick: People are flawed beings who even the most depraved of us wish to do good but not nessisarily good onto others.

Alignment often fails to understand that good people do bad things. It fails to understand the basic premise of evil. As well it fails to understand the differences between action and motivation as well as the many grey areas of morality. Dungeons and dragons itself doesn't know its own rules and constantly betrays them.

The idea of why the Monk needs to be lawful is that a chaotic person lacks the mental dicipline in order to do so. Yet it cannot support this premise within the gameplay or story. Chaotic characters are not chaotic people they are people who consider freedom and autonomy to be what should be the foundations of society. A Chaotic Good character for example may believe that people need to be free to do good and all laws do is get in the way of goodness. YET Chaotic characters do not nessissarily lack dicipline.

The easiest proof of how broken the game is, is the idea that a person who is a good person but not "That good" (as in someone who will do bad things if the need calls for it) is often treated as a Neutral character. Which is a fundemental problem. You cannot put characters who are good but recognise that their own morals do not hold up in all situations into a neutral allignment because by all means they are good.

Good isn't flawless yet it is treated as such.

Extend this to a society. Do Lawful Good societies have capital punishment? What kinds of capital punishment can they perform? If they had a particularly cruel form of capital punishment that had to be executed because of the tenants of their allignment would that still count?

Thus ultimately Dungeon and dragons allignment is simply illogical nonsense stupid talk that no one should take seriously. It feigns the image of being comprehensive but lacks anything to do so.
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ductape

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Re: Branching story lines in RPGs
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2012, 03:01:30 am »

Thanks or you input Neonivek. I fundamentally disagree with you on so many points, I will just decline to delve into them.

My veiled point here is that I think such a game as the one I have hinted at is possible and potentially fun to design. I also believe that executed properly, it could be quite fun to play and would illustrate a new direction in computer story telling.

The question is, how small to make it so that it doesn't quickly grow over large and therefore require to much work to complete.
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Darkmere

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Re: Branching story lines in RPGs
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2012, 03:05:53 am »

Welp. I had a big thing typed up but my fat fingers erased it so, I'll just post a summary.

Assume you have a game with only 3 quests, 4 outcomes each. If everything affects every other thing, quest 1's 4 endings must apply to EACH of quest 2's, and those 16, each apply to every quest 3 ending. That's 64 situations to consider at endgame. And that's a tiny RPG, with a set party and nothing at all besides the main quest.
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Neonivek

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Re: Branching story lines in RPGs
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2012, 03:09:06 am »

Thanks or you input Neonivek. I fundamentally disagree with you on so many points, I will just decline to delve into them.

My veiled point here is that I think such a game as the one I have hinted at is possible and potentially fun to design. I also believe that executed properly, it could be quite fun to play and would illustrate a new direction in computer story telling.

The question is, how small to make it so that it doesn't quickly grow over large and therefore require to much work to complete.

Thats ok, I disagree with all your points so much that I will now tear them down instantly.

You are making things up. You do not understand the fundemental principles in making a game. That in order to add content you have to add content. That creating a multibranch game is a simple concept that has been done before, it is about making a game that can turn in another dirrection or about exploring a game in different ways.

Quote
The question is, how small to make it so that it doesn't quickly grow over large and therefore require to much work to complete

No you arn't getting it it has nothing to do with that it has nothing to do with shrinking a game.

It is about having a well thought out plan and the time to do it.

Quote
I also believe that executed properly, it could be quite fun to play and would illustrate a new direction in computer story telling

New? Branching storylines have been in gaming for decades. There have been games where the sole purpose was to explore every single branch available.

Quote
Assume you have a game with only 3 quests, 4 outcomes each. If everything affects every other thing, quest 1's 4 endings must apply to EACH of quest 2's, and those 16, each apply to every quest 3 ending. That's 64 situations to consider at endgame

Aha but that is where you made your mistake. You see branching storylines do not nessisarily mean fully realised storylines.

Many of those can meet as well the difference between each branch do not nessisarily mean entirely new content. Plus often it is about one game with many ways to explore that single game.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 03:11:01 am by Neonivek »
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Darkmere

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Re: Branching story lines in RPGs
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2012, 03:13:56 am »

Aha but that is where you made your mistake. You see branching storylines do not nessisarily mean fully realised storylines.

Many of those can meet as well the difference between each branch do not nessisarily mean entirely new content. Plus often it is about one game with many ways to explore that single game.

I said consider, not plot for. I was trying to illustrate how complex a relatively short plot could be.
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And then, they will be weaponized. Like everything in this game, from kittens to babies, everything is a potential device of murder.
So if baseless speculation is all we have, we might as well treat it like fact.

Reelya

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Re: Branching story lines in RPGs
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2012, 03:16:53 am »

Lose voice acting and I could see this happening. Oh, how I wish modern RPGs would lose the voice acting. See how well Morrowind did?

'Course, that's not what the average Joe is looking for these days- they want voices and pretty graphics, and neither lends itself particularly well to a refined RPG.

This will all change in a few years as voice generation software improves. Take a look on youtube at some of the rather impressive vocaloid live concerts. Definitely within the next 2 decades, full digital voice acting and "digital actors" will become cheaper than hiring voice actors. Also, whack more AI into the characters so they can ad-lib as the player affects the world.

So basically adding voice generation, "digital acting" and AI opens up the possibility for more immersive environments, open-ended stories with higher production values than seen now in the "hand made" AAA games. The whole "story on rails" system and hand-making character interactions will seem outdated before too many years. The current methods are just too costly.

In my opinion, that technology opens up the possibility of leveling the playing field for small companies a lot, in the same way that procedural generation leveled the playing field a lot for terrain and other assets.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 03:21:48 am by Reelya »
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Neonivek

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Re: Branching story lines in RPGs
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2012, 03:24:13 am »

Quote
The whole "story on rails" system and hand-making character interactions will seem outdated before too many years.

No it will never be. Simply because no unfocused system could ever beat a focused system.

Quote
In my opinion, that technology opens up the possibility of leveling the playing field for small companies a lot, in the same way that procedural generation leveled the playing field a lot for terrain and other assets

I agree but for different reasons. I think technology is reaching a plateau in how much technology can really enhance a game, where technology to advance gaming tools will grow more slowly then how more accessible these tools will become.

There is only so real you can make someone until they are real.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 03:26:49 am by Neonivek »
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ductape

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Re: Branching story lines in RPGs
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2012, 03:28:46 am »

You are a silly person Neonivek. Thanks for being all smarty and entertaining and stuff ;)

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Neonivek

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Re: Branching story lines in RPGs
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2012, 03:29:28 am »

You are a silly person Neonivek. Thanks for being all smarty and entertaining and stuff ;)

No problem. I am surprised I came off as smarty though. It is probably because I am writing an essay right now.
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Darkmere

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Re: Branching story lines in RPGs
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2012, 03:34:23 am »

The above 2 posts are golden.
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And then, they will be weaponized. Like everything in this game, from kittens to babies, everything is a potential device of murder.
So if baseless speculation is all we have, we might as well treat it like fact.

Reelya

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Re: Branching story lines in RPGs
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2012, 03:38:56 am »

@Neonevik:

Where I disagree is that "real" has many dimensions. We are reaching the limits of how real they can look. but we are barely scraping the surface of how real they act.

Right now, they act "real" only as long as you stick to a very limited set of interactions, and in pretty much any game it's not hard for the player to break immersion by causing the NPCs to say or do something preposterous, which proves they are blind, pre-scripted idiots with nothing behind the facade. Most games avoid this by force-limiting you to the allowed interactions (pre-prepared responses from your character etc). you can't go "off script" other than in trivial ways, because allowing that would have caused a massive blow-out in production costs and the schedule.

so, in this respect, the current model of production is reaching a plateau.

That's why I'm saying AI and "digital acting" (every character able to generate dialogue at runtime that responds to the players actions - or even to your speech) is going to be the next big revolution in game characters. Once the software exists, the cost of production will plummet WAY below what it is now, and the benefits will be to allow looser scripting and characters who realistically respond to player choices.

Climb down off the plateau and there's a mountain over there that was just barely visible.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 03:40:43 am by Reelya »
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ductape

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Re: Branching story lines in RPGs
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2012, 04:01:10 am »

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