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[ScriptWolf]

Aye last time I checked up I I'm sure I read the team had split due to a fall out.


It's nice to see it finally have advanced to a Alpha point although I'm very surprised I thought it was vapourware for a long time.

I backed but I'm staying skeptic so long as they stick to the good and true of dungeon keeper and make it in all senses the 3rd in the series and what the bullfrog "war for the over world" was going to be then be world will be right.

[GreatJustice]

Quite frankly, I'd fork over a pile of money for a DKII clone with better graphics, less bugs and modibility.

[Mephansteras]

Backed as well. I'd love another good DK game!

[Neonivek]

I think it's just the term "Evil Villain".  No one ever classifies themselves as Evil or a Villain. 

Maybe Maniacal Despot, or Tyrant, or something.  But Evil Villain does have too many silly connotations attached to it, even if it does mean the same thing.

You caught it, it is specifically the "Evil Villain" part.

The issue, as with many things, is that the concept of a person who does evil things for the sake of doing evil things... and isn't played as a complete psychopath incapable of living in the real world, is in it of itself a silly concept.

So the only way to do it in a game where you are playing someone who is clearly evil just because is to just gloss over it or to make it incredibly ambiguous.

Another issue is that real heart wrenching villainy is rarely fun for a lot of people. Thus any game where you can play a villain also has to put a stop on how evil your character really is and isn't.

I mean, I know at some point there's just nothing left to do, or at least nothing that won't break everything else and require massive further investment, but most of them really do sound like meaningless fluff, especially if they're going to be releasing modding tools anyway.

Some I am fine with. The Co-op is something I starve for in most games. Especially story co-op.

Yet everything is yeah... useless useless fluff.

Reminds me of a D&D character I've been wanting to play

Ohh goodness if you want to see the quickest way to poor story telling you just watch an "Evil Campaign".

See dungeons and dragons really demonstrates how silly "Evil" can be since any evil campaign will quickly devolve into what I call "Psychopathy" or rather "Evil for evil sake". The game will FULLY support this idea that evil is overt mustach twirling villainy because it supports that acting "against" your allignment (in this case, not being evil) is a terrible thing.

AS IN! A evil person helping an old lady cross the street... Would litterally cry about it later.

This is supported by the fact that the game outright applies the very same limitations on good people doing evil things. A good person who is in a bad mood and kicks a lady trying to cross the street will cry about it later.

Play a game with "Evil" choices? The vast majority of them will be incredibly silly. Fable? Not doing anything but the most angelic of actions is considered absolutely evil and often to be "totally evil" you just have to kill people for no dang reason. You see there is no reason in evil.

Heck Play Dragon Age 1... Play with Morigan on your team and watch every single complaint, and she is the voice of chaotic evil in the game, at every single deed you do. Add Sten too. Litterally neither of them, because they are so dang evil, understand the concept of being likable, recompense, or even the concequences for their actions. Evil is silly! Evil you see has NO concept of doing good for any reason whatsoever because Evil is mentally disabled.

---

Thus Evil is very silly... A Evil Villain is just silly

And if you arn't an Evil Villain you arn't evil you are just "Neutral".

[Zangi]

Insert Dark Side in the Star Wars MMO as a back-up to what Neonivek said. 
+80% of the people I've grouped with are evil for the sake of evil, it was really grating.  Even the Bounty Hunter class does not really have a 'I'm a Mercenary, not a psychopath or some douche in the wrong line of work and a heart of gold' feel.

[Akura]

I think the OP is causing a security bar to show up in my browser.

[GreatJustice]

Honestly, games that try to define "Good" and "Evil" are flawed from the beginning, because the only way to do that in any meaningful sense is to make Evil stupid. There ought to be more depth, with axises defining, say, "Selflessness/Selfishness", "Compassion/Logic", "Practical/Ideal", etc. The most reasonable evil characters are the ones that are self serving, as opposed to being evil for evil's sake. A character who kills people because he personally has a problem with them, or gets paid piles of money for it, or something like that can be made a reasonably round villain. A character who kills people because its "evil", not so much.

Bioware games were a bit better about that, but even then, "Closed Fist/Renegade" was still effectively shorthand for evil. Jade Empire tried to draw examples of Open Palm users being evil or Closed Fist users being good, but then proceeded to treat CF as evil regardless.

[Trollheiming]

Honestly, games that try to define "Good" and "Evil" are flawed from the beginning, because the only way to do that in any meaningful sense is to make Evil stupid. There ought to be more depth, with axises defining, say, "Selflessness/Selfishness", "Compassion/Logic", "Practical/Ideal", etc.

For bonus points, make the villain selfless and compassionate but thoroughly misguided.

[Neonivek]

Might and Magic Dark Massiah had a villain who was selfless and compassionate and honestly in a different game he could have been the hero.

It is just that his goals did not match your own.

It was weird because the game is SOOO BAD and yet it actually has one of the best written villains that has ever been included in videogames.

[Neon Green]

Might and Magic Dark Massiah had a villain who was selfless and compassionate and honestly in a different game he could have been the hero.

It is just that his goals did not match your own.

It was weird because the game is SOOO BAD and yet it actually has one of the best written villains that has ever been included in videogames.

The villain in that game tries to exterminate an entire city to indirectly defeat a nominally worse threat that's never shown in action. That's neither selfless nor compassionate.

[Neonivek]

He sacrificed an entire city to stopa MUCH worse threat to the world.

He essentially tried to stop the end of the world and honestly... it would have worked.

Mind you the issue is that you don't know most of that stuff just by playing that game... >_< you kinda have to know the setting.

[Viken]

Bah. It all comes down to morality, and how society dictates what is right and wrong; and rather or not a course of action is ethically 'moral' or not.  A modern example would be planned parenthood vs. abortion rights, while a couple of decades ago it was rather or not African-Americans in the US were even to be classified as human, instead of a lesser species.

In a case like this, though, even the game design is limited to what people will respond to, so being evil is usually tongue-in-cheek or even a bit cheesy; but in truth most of that is just being bad.  Evil in and of itself desires nothing and requires nothing, only complete darkness besides itself.  It takes things like goals, conviction, and a purpose outside of being the -only- thing in existance to give it any meaning.  Destroying everything just to have nothing but yourself would be bloody boring, after all.

Still, WFTO already looks alot better than Dungeons did, and will probably be a bit more exciting than some of the other Dungeon Keeper-like games I've seen lately, or even A Game of Dwarves.  So I'm rooting for it.  Don't like it, don't get involved.  Easy.

[pilgrimboy]

It looks like for once we might get a mature look at being an evil villain.

Doubt it. You cannot make a mature game about being a evil villain because being an evil villain isn't mature. It is a very silly thing in concept.

It is why you see them in childrens cartoons but never in anything more adult then that outside of slasher villains.

Have you ever heard of Goldman Sachs?

[Vattic]

They've got my pledge. Anyone remember when this was a Dungeon Keeper fan sequel rather than just a spiritual successor?

[Neonivek]

It looks like for once we might get a mature look at being an evil villain.

Doubt it. You cannot make a mature game about being a evil villain because being an evil villain isn't mature. It is a very silly thing in concept.

It is why you see them in childrens cartoons but never in anything more adult then that outside of slasher villains.

Have you ever heard of Goldman Sachs?

I am speaking more pessimistically and based on society... then on factuality.