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[Robosaur]

I already admitted I had no idea how to handle stances.
You seem to know a lot more about than me, though!

(I'm only a purple belt in tae kwon do. Most defs not the resident expert on martial arts across the world )

[Zoolimar]

I already admitted I had no idea how to handle stances.

Basically a stance applies passive changes to attacks and defenses and restricts some moves (very rare).

Take this for example

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Attacks from forward leg and arm are faster but don't have much power after them and you use them to test opponents defenses.
Attacks from back leg and arm have more power cause you can easily use your body to add momentum to attacks but they need movement of all the body and somewhat obvious - easy to parry.

[Robosaur]

Hmmmm... so something like this?

[MA_TECHNIQUE:STANCE]
  [ATTACK_VERB:stance:NA]
  [TYPE:STANCE]
  [MA_VELOCITY_MODIFIER:SAME_SIDE:3:2:DURING_STANCE]  //Decreases attack power of attacks from the front limb
  [MA_ACCURACY:SAME_SIDE:2:3:DURING_STANCE]  //Makes attacks from the front limb harder to parry or dodge
  [MA_VELOCITY_MODIFIER:OPPOSITE_SIDE:2:3:DURING_STANCE]  //Makes attacks from the back limbs stronger
  [MA_ACCURACY:SAME_SIDE:3:2:DURING_STANCE] //But makes them harder to parry
  [MA_GUARDING_POWER:SAME_SIDE:2:3:DURING_STANCE] //Provides a slight advantage while guarding

//no [REQUIRES] tag because you don't need limbs of any sort to just kinda lean somewhat to the side while facing your opponent.
//certain techniques can have a [SWITCH_STANCE_SIDE] that allows you to switch which side the stance is favouring when used as a free action.
//certain techniques can also have a [REQUIRES_OPPOSITE_STANCE_SIDE] or [REQUIRES_SAME_STANCE_SIDE] for kicks that are required to be in the back.

I came up with this after what you wrote. Is this accurate or is any changing needed?

[Zoolimar]

I came up with this after what you wrote. Is this accurate or is any changing needed?

Maybe only a penalty to thrusting attacks to torso - around 15% assuming a 30 degree turn.

Most dodges in reality is just this - turning torso to let attack slip away.

[Robosaur]

cool. I think we could use this:
  [DODGEBONUS:BY_CATEGORY:BODY_UPPER:2:3:DURING_STANCE]
  [DODGEBONUS:BY_CATEGORY:BODY_LOWER:2:3:DURING_STANCE]

I'll stick it in the OP

[dwarf_sadist]

The major problems I have with DF martial arts are:
-The two combatants are always one tile away, never in the same tile unless one is on the ground.
-The position of the combatants, both inside the tile and in relation to each other is not tracked.
-The types of moves you may make are hard coded into the raws of each caste/race.
-Different moves are no different from each other, except the body part that is used.

[Robosaur]

Do you have any ideas on how to rectify this?

[Zoolimar]

-The two combatants are always one tile away, never in the same tile unless one is on the ground.

Possibility of 2 standing creatures in 1 tile.

-The position of the combatants, both inside the tile and in relation to each other is not tracked.

I think general position is tracked - front, side, back. At least there is such notifications in battle reports.

-Different moves are no different from each other, except the body part that is used.

Thats realistic. Most moves used in actual combat are simple and have most difference in setup before attack.

EDIT for the last point: Thats not so true for weapons but there is not so much ways in which you can make fast and strong attacks with your fists and legs against humanoid opponents. Weak attacks do not deal damage (pain from them mostly blocked by adrenaline) and slow attacks are worthless cause you can't hit your opponent. There is some exceptions but they need highly exclusive circumstances.

[dwarf_sadist]

Of course

-The two combatants are always one tile away, never in the same tile unless one is on the ground.

The easiest way would be to allow for multiple units in one tile at once. Since toady calculated the tiles as 2x2x3, a single tile could possibly hold 1-4 dwarfs, depending on their girth. Grapples and clinches could require you to be in the same tile as the opponent, thereby reducing the number of tiles a wrestling match takes place in.

-The position of the combatants, both inside the tile and in relation to each other is not tracked.

If your inside the attack range of the enemy, he can hit you anywhere. True combat is determined by what part of your body is able to reach the enemy's, and what part of the enemy's body you can hit. If you are standing up and the opponent is laying face down on the ground, the opponent should not be able to attack you properly, and should not be able to gouge your eyes out. One way to do this is have it so that each round of combat, you may either:
strike; block and parry; grapple and throw; manoeuvre and escape; hold, choke and submission.

Your position could either be tracked in static boxes (standing, kneeling, crouching, pinned, etc) or it could be an arbitrary percentage, with 100% being perfect stance and position, which is then compared against the enemies. Manoeuvring can be used to get into a more advantageous position in either case (like behind someone to hit their spine) or to move out of a dangerous position/hold (a break or escape).

-The types of moves you may make are hard coded into the raws of each caste/race.

I'm not quite sure yet on how to properly do this. Perhaps make it so that body parts with tokens may perform a type of attack, and then base the effectiveness of that attack on the physical properties and materials. For instance, a digit token could be used by all claws, fingers, nails and talons; required to make use of gouging, clawing and pinching. While a tentacle clawing at you (with [digit] token; it's a small tentacle) might not be very effective, it should not be restricted in the raws.

-Different moves are no different from each other, except the body part that is used.

Each attack should have a different chance of success, failure, injury, damage, speed, subtlety, counter-ability and recovery. A jab is easy to defend against, but they are faster, less tiring and harder to predict than a haymaker. The moves should be used when appropriate, without the arbitrary punch to the head. All moves should be effective against different targets as well, so a punch would be effective against the throat, but a spear hand or chop would be even more effective. You should also be able to invest how much of your energy, body weight and positioning you should commit to an attack, thereby giving a risk/reward system to the fighter.

EDIT: Ninja'd, I should really stop walking away from the keyboard when in the middle of typing.

[Neonivek]

Moves differ by how much time they take to do and how much time they take to recover. What part you use to attack, how much the attack uses your attributes, how it uses the weight, how much it relies on the stance (in terms of strength and speed), as well as special attributes.

Special attributes such as
1) Bind Mitigation: How unaffected the move is in bindings (such as the ability to fight in cuffs)
2) Balance Mitigation: The move mitigates being off balance to a certain degree.
3) Prone attack: the power mitigation for using it on the ground
4) Prone Attack Rise: The move stands you up. May not nessisarily even be an attack.
5) Into Stance: The attack puts you into a new stance. May not nessisarily be an attack.
6) Draw attack: A move that can ready a weapon in the same move
7) Prone Mitigation: How much something negates the prone disadvantage

In fact none of these may even be attacks. Multilevel martial arts may involve moving from stance to stance to set up better moves or switching to defense. A Defensive block that guards into an offensive stance is a great set up.

In fact forget special a move should have a statement of what stance it sets you up into with "Prone" and "Standing" being two possible ones.

These are just a few things to consider.

[Robosaur]

Of course

-The two combatants are always one tile away, never in the same tile unless one is on the ground.

The easiest way would be to allow for multiple units in one tile at once. Since toady calculated the tiles as 2x2x3, a single tile could possibly hold 1-4 dwarfs, depending on their girth. Grapples and clinches could require you to be in the same tile as the opponent, thereby reducing the number of tiles a wrestling match takes place in.

Isn't the current system already like this? At least, with the grapples and clinches...
I guess I could add a [CLOSECOMBAT] tag to certain attacks, also allowing for 1-inch punches and stuff.

-The position of the combatants, both inside the tile and in relation to each other is not tracked.

If your inside the attack range of the enemy, he can hit you anywhere. True combat is determined by what part of your body is able to reach the enemy's, and what part of the enemy's body you can hit. If you are standing up and the opponent is laying face down on the ground, the opponent should not be able to attack you properly, and should not be able to gouge your eyes out. One way to do this is have it so that each round of combat, you may either:
strike; block and parry; grapple and throw; manoeuvre and escape; hold, choke and submission.

Your position could either be tracked in static boxes (standing, kneeling, crouching, pinned, etc) or it could be an arbitrary percentage, with 100% being perfect stance and position, which is then compared against the enemies. Manoeuvring can be used to get into a more advantageous position in either case (like behind someone to hit their spine) or to move out of a dangerous position/hold (a break or escape).

This is what the [OUT_TO_IN] and [IN_TO_OUT] and stances thing is as well as [FRONT] and [BACK] and [SIDE] tokens for body parts, and how back kicks reveal the back for a bit. I was also bouncing around the idea of adding flexibility to limbs but I'm not really sure on how best to model this. There's probably other ways to add to this.

-The types of moves you may make are hard coded into the raws of each caste/race.

I'm not quite sure yet on how to properly do this. Perhaps make it so that body parts with tokens may perform a type of attack, and then base the effectiveness of that attack on the physical properties and materials. For instance, a digit token could be used by all claws, fingers, nails and talons; required to make use of gouging, clawing and pinching. While a tentacle clawing at you (with [digit] token; it's a small tentacle) might not be very effective, it should not be restricted in the raws.

I guess I didn't explain this part very well. The attacks aren't hard coded in, there's attack templates that can be imported, that include things like elbow strikes and kicks and palm strikes so that for the most part there's no need to copy+paste a billion attacks. However, you can add your own attack templates, or have a creature use an attack template and then remove their knee strike if you're making a race of creatures with glass kneecaps. I kind of explained this in more depth in the OP I think.

-Different moves are no different from each other, except the body part that is used.

Each attack should have a different chance of success, failure, injury, damage, speed, subtlety, counter-ability and recovery. A jab is easy to defend against, but they are faster, less tiring and harder to predict than a haymaker. The moves should be used when appropriate, without the arbitrary punch to the head. All moves should be effective against different targets as well, so a punch would be effective against the throat, but a spear hand or chop would be even more effective. You should also be able to invest how much of your energy, body weight and positioning you should commit to an attack, thereby giving a risk/reward system to the fighter.[/quote]

This can be done using the tags I suggested, save for self-injury. I kept forgetting to mean to add a chapter on conditioning your limbs to be able to strike without self-injury, and now I don't particularly see the point too much.


So yeah, I hope this addresses your complaints effectively?

[Neonivek]

Don't forget Reach Robosaur. A lot of attacks are based entirely on reach and possition.

There are even punches that are based on having absolutely no room to punch (Zero strikes) and weapon attacks based off of using every single bit of length your body and weapon can muster.

A basic understanding is that martial arts should be developed accordingly with what is expected of them. Which should provide a martial art template.

But to put it simply martial arts should have moves based on zero to long reach attacks, prone moves, unbalance moves, and stance shifts. With martial arts that focus on one or almost completely ignore another should be considered to be "focusing".

As well you have to also include Martial Art Extension styles and Completion Styles.

A Martial Art that has Completion styles isn't complete until a completion style is learned with the base style being considered "The Basics". (Bullet Proof Monk is an example of this. Where all their martial arts were essentially completions of a basic set)

Extension styles however are martial arts that include moves that are alterations of moves within the style or that add moves to the list. They may or may not include a stance change. (Kung-Fu has a LOT of this)

Martial arts should also keep track if another martial art is based upon or is an alteration of another one. As the hostility and rivalry between the martial arts is often plot hooks within fiction and real life.

[Robosaur]

oh boy.

okay you know what? I don't think I'm mentally fit for the monumental task of maintaining this megathread.
I just don't even anymore... 

[Neonivek]

oh boy.

okay you know what? I don't think I'm mentally fit for the monumental task of maintaining this megathread.
I just don't even anymore... 

What you CAN do is just categorise the suggestions and link them. Instead of expanding them on the main page.

Or lead discussions on martial arts if you given up on the whole megathread thing.

[Robosaur]

okay yeah I can do that