Gregory Struck: Nothing happens suddenly, that's my point. You like to make things sudden and dramatic but I want to illustrate natural evolution, which means in gradual steps.
Gregory Struck: Its like in school when people discussed evolution, I always hated that people thought things went in steps.
Gregory Struck: No, everything is a gradual roll.
Gregory Struck: Gene sequence after gene sequence altered, slowly creating something new.
Gregory Struck: No revolutions. No sudden changes. Nothing total or absolute.
Ashton Ward: Eh, I'd disagree at that one. Every possibility lies at a crossroads.
Gregory Struck: Yes, but progression is not sudden. A species does not become another overnight due a single change in it's genome. We have an infinite amount of crossroads and only after travelling through many can change occur.
Ashton Ward: OK then: If the common ancestor of humanity, say a small rodent living 67 million years ago was a hypothetical inch to the right when a hypothetical dinosaur placed it's foot down then in less than a second all of humanity would be gone.
Gregory Struck: That is assuming the same another rodent of the same species couldn't exchange roles with the dead creature.
Ashton Ward: You know, we could really do with a glossary or something similar for the Hyperion mythos, having all these alternate realities is pretty mind-bending.
Gregory Struck: I agree, the lore is inherently confusing as shit.
Ashton Ward: I'm pretty sure parts of the lore contradict other parts too.
Gregory Struck: They do, on purpose. Heh, that's what you don't seem to get: in different alternate realities, different things are true.
Gregory Struck: The main storyline for the books takes place in the “final” cycle of an infinite amount of cycles or alternate realities.
Ashton Ward: Well yes, but those alternate realities are separate from each other and don't collide
Gregory Struck: Nope.
Gregory Struck: Because the Precursor and Skyborn races are both in our universe having arrived from their own branch of reality.
Gregory Struck: They're a mismatch of various possibilities. Hence why nothing matches evenly or makes sense.
Ashton Ward: But they didn't “come” to our universe, they travelled back in time and the resulting change created a new universe.
Gregory Struck: N'aww, that's a stretch even for us. The lore has always said the Precursors entered our universe with the Skyborn technology. The Skyborn being the one's with the capability to enter alternate realities: that's how they propagate.
Ashton Ward: Blech, it's impossible to travel to other universes, you just end up creating an identical copy of the one your travelling to and end up there instead as your mere presence causes an alternate reality. The same applies to time travel.
Gregory Struck: The big joke is that both the Skyborn and Precursor keep thinking they'll eventually find their way back to the original universe, but all they're doing is going further down the line as they enter copies of copies of copies.
Gregory Struck: I say ENTER a universe because each universe has a timeline.
Gregory Struck: If they were creating a universe they'd appear at the big bang.
Gregory Struck: By "entering" a universe, they're creating a universe with a set template, minor mutations in the code, and popping into existence at a particular point in that timeline.
Ashton Ward: Huh? When you create a universe it doesn't start at the beginning because time doesn't work like that, you're going through the 5th dimension, not the 4th
Gregory Struck: I don't want to say that the universes are created, but imply they already exist.
Gregory Struck: And that all we're doing is jumping around between universes in various stages of development because we consider time to be linear but in fact is it not.
Gregory Struck: The multiverse idea.
Gregory Struck: We keep thinking we start with universe A, progress to universe B, then C and so forth 'til Z, but that's far too linear.
Ashton Ward: Well all of time exists already, your death and mine, our births and every variation of them. The thing is though, those variations are only possible at certain points within the thirteen-dimensional shape of existence.
Gregory Struck: Yes.
Ashton Ward: The fact that certain variations are only possible at certain periods means at some point within the multiverse they exist and others they don't, thus an origin is implied.
Gregory Struck: I'm a firm believer that there is no true origin because it defies everything.
Gregory Struck: I think of everything as being within an infinite cycle.
Gregory Struck: There is no god, no origin, and that everything simply always was, and we're experiencing a set point in infinity.
Ashton Ward: My personal belief is that the multiverse can be fully described with a 13-dimensional equation. Take x=y^2 - every value from negative infinity to infinity is there but still within the bounds of infinity and thus the origin is still present.
Gregory Struck: There can be no true origin in an infinite loop, it is arbitrary because it is lost within the loop itself.
Ashton Ward: Not a loop, a fractal pattern.
Gregory Struck: Whatever: chain, net, loop, shape, fractal.
Ashton Ward: Infinite detail which becomes more and more detailed as you go through various generations of which there are an infinite amount
Gregory Struck: Yep, sounds about right. Ok, a fractal pattern.
Gregory Struck: Which is why every consecutive universe becomes more complex, jumbled, and progresses "further" than the last.
Ashton Ward: Which means there's an origin!
Gregory Struck: Yes, but there's no point to the origin.
Ashton Ward: Yes: there's no point to the origin but it's there.
Gregory Struck: I can't personally wrap my head around a feasible origin to the universe or multiverse though.
Gregory Struck: An origin would generally defy an infinite pattern unless specifically considered in a linear timeline.
Ashton Ward: Generally, but not in reference to a fractal pattern
Gregory Struck: Wait a second...
Gregory Struck: If you drop a particle in an infinite void, it'll "fall" for an infinite period of time.
Ashton Ward: Yup
Gregory Struck: The pattern itself abides the physical laws of the universe.
Gregory Struck: This pattern becomes increasingly complex as the scale is ramped up. Though even the smallest particle is as complex as the entire universe due to the infinite possibilities it could follow. Thus the complexity of existence is measured on a never-ending microcosmic scale that could never be fully perceived.
Gregory Struck: Our entire multiverse with it's infinite complexity could be just another step in an infinitely expanding pattern of existence for all we know. The multiverse just one plankton is a pond.
Gregory Struck: Trapped in stagnant ponds of reality, never to truly see the light of day except through imperfect senses. An entire planet compared to our pond. A star system. A galaxy. a universe.
Ashton Ward: Yup, an infinite amount of complexity. Planc's constant implies there's a finite amount of complexity within a single universe but as there's an infinite amount of other universes overall there's still an infinite amount of complexity.
Gregory Struck: Aye.
Gregory Struck: So the powers that govern our universe are constant, but in light of a greater macro-cosmic scale, we are as insignificant as specks of floating dust.
Gregory Struck: That is precisely the idea I want to express with the mythos.
Gregory Struck: How utterly insignificant Humanity is, yet still we fight and persevere.
Ashton Ward: Well the amount of universes increases exponentially, each new universe creates an infinite amount of new universes every infinitely small period of time. Each new universe representing a unique possibility.
Gregory Struck: Indeed, and that's only considering the universes on our scale.
Gregory Struck: Extrapolating the constant increases in scale, our multiverse could indeed function as some rudimentary super-particle as the infinitesimal building block of a vastly superior form of reality.
Gregory Struck: In essence, meaning our multiverse is as significant but tiny as bits of data in a computer program.
Gregory Struck: MATRIX THEORY
Gregory Struck: Damn it, I just did that, didn't I?
Ashton Ward: Yup, my personal theory is self-awareness is the computer program you just described.
Gregory Struck: My idea is that all of existence is a simulation. That the greatest machine, the biggest computational matrix in existence is reality itself.
Gregory Struck: Which makes perfect sense.
Ashton Ward: No, if a rock is thrown then it calculates the forces imparted on itself and thus moves in that direction as computed by that rock's awareness
Gregory Struck: Hmm?
Gregory Struck: A rock is void of awareness, it moves due to whatever forces act upon it and the laws of physics. Everything there is mechanical.
Ashton Ward: Basically my thinking is every entity is self-aware and that awareness is what causes the physical world to manifest itself. A further development of panentheism.
Gregory Struck: Aye, my belief system is pantheistic. Pan-en-theism is the belief that there IS a galactic consciousness which creates.
Ashton Ward: Not awareness in the classical sense, awareness as in the calculations that describe something happening.
Gregory Struck: Ah, that's classical pantheism. Panentheism is a mix of pantheism and standard theism.
Gregory Struck: Pantheism: every grain of sand has energy and is therefore aware on some level.
Gregory Struck: Panentheism: everything is aware and is a result of a superior being.
Gregory Struck: Panentheism means everything is the result of a great god shitting all of history from its asshole. That god doesn't know about us and everything is interconnected because of a common origin. In panentheism everything exists as an extension of god.
Ashton Ward: N'aww, it's panentheism because the physical world exists WITHIN awareness.
Gregory Struck: Regular theism dictates that god creates all, and all is inferior to him/her/it.
Gregory Struck: Pantheism implies all is simply sacred.
Gregory Struck: Panentheism implies all is sacred because it is an aspect of god itself.
Ashton Ward: “God” is the combined awareness of the universe then, everything is a physical manifestation of it.
Gregory Struck: Is there a divinity or entity from which existence stems? Or is all equally divine, all equally blessed, all equally conscious and aware?
Gregory Struck: The nature of god is akin to the chicken or the egg.
Ashton Ward: God is a shape, an equation or a point cloud that describes itself.
Gregory Struck: Yes, this idea revolves around the manifestation of god.
Ashton Ward: And through describing itself it recreates itself.
Gregory Struck: But you don't seem to understand what that means.
Ashton Ward: 'tis a fractal pattern!
Ashton Ward: The nature of god describing itself and thus recreating itself is a fractal pattern.
Gregory Struck: That implies an origin though and thus "the universe is sacred because all energy and matter is interconnected aware" becomes "everything is interconnected and aware because of a bearded guy"
Gregory Struck: That's the problem with your definition, Ash. You're describing a theistic philosophy without accounting for a deity.
Gregory Struck: If your “deity” is a mathematical construct that reflects reality then you're in my court. It seems you're leaning towards a traditional god, something that is utter bollocks. If that's untrue you need to explain what you're saying.
Ashton Ward: The process of recreation has no visible beginning or end, like an equation there is a negative infinity and a positive infinity so the origin is pointless but it does exist. You can never drop past negative infinity and you can never reach positive infinity thus the loop is never complete.
Ashton Ward: You'll never be able to define the origin because it's an infinite amount of generations away, but at no point does the end become the beginning.
Ashton Ward: Which is where your idea of a loop falls apart.
Gregory Struck: There we go. At the end I think we agree.
Gregory Struck: How could you better describe that?
Gregory Struck: Hmm....
Gregory Struck: Not really a loop, more like a...
Ashton Ward: Equation with values which stretch from positive to negative infinity.
Gregory Struck: Bah!
Gregory Struck: A visualization, damn it!
Ashton Ward: I can visualize that perfectly though.
Gregory Struck: I'm can't think like you, I can't visualize mathematics or shapes.
Ashton Ward: How about a set of Russian dolls except there is ALWAYS a smaller doll and there is ALWAYS a bigger one too.
Gregory Struck: But that implies the smallest doll is the opposite of the largest doll when in fact, they are the most similar.
Gregory Struck: Sorry, my "special" is showing.
Gregory Struck: OK, is this correct as a summary?
Ashton Ward: Is what correct?
Gregory Struck: Hold on a second, blog post.
Gregory Struck: Sleep? Nope... up all night, nauseous and cold. At least I'm having a lovely conversation with Ashton about the mechanics of macro-cosmic physics, the pattern through which alternate universes form in a fractal multiverse, the concept that all matter and energy is aware at the level where it can describe itself and thus create a physical manifestation of itself. The notion that this awareness is present within any given entity whether that be a rock or an atom, comparable to snippets of data which mean something by themselves yet still blend to create a more complete entity.
Funnily enough this all coincides with my pantheistic beliefs, though no new ideas arose from the initial conversation it quickly spurred debate on the implication those concepts had on divinity or god: dubbed "Origin" for the sake of neutrality, we eventually decided that within an infinitely massive fractal pattern encompassing each possible reality Origin exists: though due to the nature of infinity it's meaning becomes lost. Then is it feasible for the physical world, as created by Origin, or God, to be capable of free will and vice versa? Or is all just a computational matrix relying on self-propagating stimuli?
The twist is the concept of Origin becomes meaningless as does the difference between Awareness and Origin because what we understand as God is the self-aware aspect of the universe which creates a physical manifestation of itself. Origin is a shape, an equation or a point cloud that describes itself, and through describing itself it leads to the recreation of itself in the same manner as a fractal pattern or an infinite loop.
This process of recreation has no foreseeable beginning or end, like an equation has a value of negative infinity and one of positive infinity, thus Origin whilst it exists is also pointless. It is impossible to fall below negative infinity or above positive infinity, thus a full cycle is never complete. You can never reach Origin because it's removed by an infinite amount of iterations, where each iteration is a generation of new universes, neither can the last generation be reached. Whilst the end and the beginning are identical one never becomes the other which is where the idea of a loop falls apart.
At its heart, our perception of the realities progression is akin to the Russian doll effect in which there is always a smaller doll hidden within, yet also a larger doll encompassing. That implies we are looking in on a single abstract point of reference within infinity, a point of origin that is meaningless in reference to its entirety.
Ashton Ward: Sounds good to me
Gregory Struck: So we agree?
Gregory Struck: Dude, we literally just agreed on the nature of God.
Gregory Struck: Divinity.
Gregory Struck: Reality.
Gregory Struck: Infinity.
Gregory Struck: The universe.
Gregory Struck: The multiverse.
Gregory Struck: Dude.
Ashton Ward: We never agreed on who was the dude, but yeah, I'm the dude.
Gregory Struck: The dude?
Ashton Ward: I'm the dude.
Gregory Struck: Oh, got it.
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Topic: Does materialistic pantheism imply a god? (Read 3749 times)