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[LoSboccacc]

On one side, I am totally against piracy and pirates need to sort out their priorities if the need to break the law for entartainment they cannot afford.

On the ither hand companies should really need to cut the crap on non transfereable licenses and stop trying to kill the second hand market.

[miauw62]

I'm enjoying reading this discussion. I'm going to be sad when this thread is locked.

I don't think toady is going to lock it. He would have long done it if it spiralled out of control. I think he'll leave it open as long as this is a good non-flamey discussion.

@pisskop Piracy =/= stealing, really. As it costs nothings to make a new copy of a game, while it does cost money to make a charger. Yes, there are initial developement costs, but piracy is not the same thing as stealing because the reason i just stated. That's why there are seperate laws for it. (May vary by country, but i'm pretty sure most countries have seperate laws)

[The Darkling Wolf]

Aquiring the means to play a game (or media) without offering just compensation when any means of legally aquireing under normal circumstances requires payment is stealing.  period.  Rationalize it if you would like, but the end point is the same.  If you can live with yourself and the criticisms of any who may wish to insert it than I can't stop you.
Stealing is stealing is stealing.
  But than again I have 4 pages to read up on...

Spoiler: example (click to show/hide)

Let's say I have a laptop charger.  One day, my monitor burns out.  So I take it to the small one man repair shop.  They take the laptop and the monitor.  Three days later I get a fixed laptop and a monitor.  Everything's great, except in two days my charger shorts.
  Maybe it was my own fault.  Maybe the wiring in my apartment is faulty.  Maybe a freak storm or the power company screwed up.  Perhaps the repair shop is to blame.

  Am I justified in going into the small repair shop and stealing a new one when the repair man isnt looking?  Because most likely he was to blame, in my eyes?

Maybe this example doesn't exactly pertain to your situation, but I see no real distinction.  You broke your game, you stole a new one.  You have shown me that you feel their inability to stop you made you right.

Except that repair shop will then directly lose the money they invested in purchasing the charger that you stole, whereas pirating a game incurs no additional cost to the company which made it.

[pisskop]

Potential money is certainly lost.  Abstract money that is not physical, but real just the same.  The game was still covered under copyright, wasnt it?  Than taking a copy was wrong.

Oh and thanks, I totally said monitor when I meant charger...

[The Darkling Wolf]

Potential money is not lost if you wouldn't have bought a new copy anyway.

And I'm not saying that it's not wrong, I perfectly acknowledge that pirating games is wrong, not going to stop me doing it.

[pisskop]

And until Uncle Sam (Or reciprocal government force in [insert country here]) comes pounding on your door I suppose there's nothing more to be done.  Morality can be judged in more than one way...

[Cassandra]

And until Uncle Sam (Or reciprocal government force in [insert country here]) comes pounding on your door I suppose there's nothing more to be done.  Morality can be judged in more than one way...

And when the game is no longer produced, or the company no longer exists?

[Gamerboy4life]

Well, pirating isn't exactly a good thing to do, but I see where OP is coming from here.

I wanted to play Star Wars Battlefront on my original xbox, couldn't find that shit anywhere, so I downloaded. Same goes for a lot of older games that you really just can't find anymore. Companies are sure as hell not making money on them anymore.

I actually don't feel very strongly towards pirating modern games, as long as it's from EA or another shitty company, I'm fine with that. If it's from a smaller developer, say, Bohemia Interactive, (even though they got a huge jump in fame, but that's beside the point,) you always buy the game. It is literally the biggest ass move to pirate an indie game, instead of paying like 10 bucks.

On-topic, I consider it fine when it is in the sense of a... well, "demo" of sorts- you try out the game yourself via pirating it there is no demo, then if you enjoy it, support development of that game by buying it. Well, for indie games at least. Big games by big companies... well...

Also, the "demo" idea doesn't work. Trust me, if you pirate a full game, you're going to play the full game and never buy it again.

[itisnotlogical]

Potential money is certainly lost.  Abstract money that is not physical, but real just the same.  The game was still covered under copyright, wasnt it?  Than taking a copy was wrong.

Oh and thanks, I totally said monitor when I meant charger...

Say a game is absolutely not legally available anymore. Assume Activision folded overnight and Call of Duty was discontinued, and also that 99% of all physical copies spontaneously combusted or someting, so those are super rare too. There is now no way to legally play a Call of Duty game unless you were willing to pay a large amount of money for a vintage copy, none of which would go to a copyright holder. Since the developers would not lose money anyway (considering that the game isn't available through them anyway), would it be acceptable to pirate then?

EDIT: Ninja'd by Cassandra

[pisskop]

And until Uncle Sam (Or reciprocal government force in [insert country here]) comes pounding on your door I suppose there's nothing more to be done.  Morality can be judged in more than one way...

And when the game is no longer produced, or the company no longer exists?

  I'm actually unsure how copyright laws are affected in such a situation.  Legally if they a protected copyright then you are in the wrong to take it without compensation.

I suppose you could argue that teleologically this is moral because you end up making you much happier than those who would profit at w.e. company created the game.  You get x-many hours of enjoyment on a personal level, while they recieve a paltry sum and some satisfaction.

But to itsnotlogical.  Supply-demand.  It costs alot because everybody wants it.  Its capitalism, and in a sense you are seeking to undermine it.  Not that I'm claiming you are.  Just a musing.

[LoSboccacc]

Say a game is absolutely not legally available anymore. Assume Activision folded overnight and Call of Duty was discontinued, and also that 99% of all physical copies spontaneously combusted or someting, so those are super rare too. There is now no way to legally play a Call of Duty game unless you were willing to pay a large amount of money for a vintage copy, none of which would go to a copyright holder.

Uhm, freaking big deal? It is not like you are entitled in any way to play it. Suppose I really want a DeLorean...

[Cthulhu]

If I really really really like a game I pirated, or just have a guilt moment, I'll occasionally buy it on steam when it's on sale for five bucks.  Aside from that, I don't buy games I pirate and I think the whole "Extended demo" rationalization is ridiculous.  Like I said before, if you're gonna steal, own it.  Don't rationalize, don't justify, and for the love of god don't act sanctimonious about it (You know the people I'm talking about.  They wear cassette-and-crossbones shirts and never shut the hell up).

Looking at my somewhat embarrassingly large Steam library (It's massively inflated by humble bundles I got for a penny), I count somewhere in the ballpark of twelve to fifteen games I originally pirated and then later bought.

LoSboccacc, you can't magic yourself up a DeLorean at no cost to anyone, that analogy isn't valid.

[miauw62]

People, before we continue this thread, we have to realize that a game is not a physical object that costs time and money to make. If there is one game, it costs (nearly) nothing to make two of that game (assuming this game is DRM-free), and therefore any nearly analogy with any nearly physical object is invalid.

[pisskop]

It is though.  It did cost time and money, and you have to picture this game as any you would buy on steam.  There's no material thing to be bought.  You buy piece of software.  Unless you steal it by pirating.

Like a membership to a club.  Its not tangible (in fact that's partially why they have shirts and cards, to give you something tangible) but costs money.  Would you steal a membership to a club?

Or how about a service?  Let's say John Mctaxi gave you a ride to the airport, and you jumped out and 'forgot' to pay him.  You just stiffed him, stole a ride.

A game is an investment.  You make it and hope people will buy it, Like a book.  Is stealing a book you would never have bought wrong?

[pilgrimboy]

How does it not being a physical object matter? The digital code is what costs the most in the item, not the physical object. They spend a lot of money to arrange code in an order that we will enjoy playing. I buy digital code to play all the time on Steam. No physical object involved. Buying a game isn't really about buying a physical object.