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[WealthyRadish]

If other companies DRM was as good as steam, I think steam would have been stuck sharing with other platforms like it. However, the other companies never went for that sort of thing, and so steam got a stranglehold on that market. Not really Valve's fault that other companies weren't intelligent enough to make something like that.

This is a good point, but I feel that the message is wrong. If we were prostitutes and publishers were pimps, this is like saying that since Daddy Valve beats us the least severely, we should all choose him as our pimp. It's a narrow view, and a justification for sticking with Steam that I feel is nonbeneficital to us, the consumers (er, or prostitutes... maybe not the best analogy). Acting like you're a prize that Valve has won through their feats will only lead to exploitation, and I feel many people who are in complete support of Steam are ultimately throwing away any meager power we do have as consumers.


Edit: Damn, where has this gone? Imma back out of this discussion, before a manifesto gets written.

[Gamerboy4life]

If other companies DRM was as good as steam, I think steam would have been stuck sharing with other platforms like it. However, the other companies never went for that sort of thing, and so steam got a stranglehold on that market. Not really Valve's fault that other companies weren't intelligent enough to make something like that.

This is a good point, but I feel that the message is wrong. If we were prostitutes and publishers were pimps, this is like saying that since Daddy Valve beats us the least severely, we should all choose him as our pimp. It's a narrow view, and a justification for sticking with Steam that I feel is nonbeneficital to us, the consumers (er, or prostitutes... maybe not the best analogy). Acting like you're a prize that Valve has won through their feats will only lead to exploitation, and I feel many people who are in complete support of Steam are ultimately throwing away any meager power we do have as consumers.


Edit: Damn, where has this gone? Imma back out of this discussion, before a manifesto gets written.

It's like the Amazon E-Book argument, the fact that they can revoke your license at any time, etc.

I see where you are coming from, but is steam REALLY a bad thing? We still have consoles, and I'm pretty sure services like Steam and Origin are going to stick exclusively to PC. For now.

[Alastar]

With current tech media and software are natural Public Goods (Goods that you can't easily exclude people from using, and that aren't dininished by use. Lighthouses are a textbook example). The free market doesn't generally work for those.

Copyright is an artificial restriction attempting to make those goods non-Public again, but the easier it is naturally to access the good the uglier and more invasive enforcement becomes, but also the more profitable for the makers.
Customers are often willing to pay as much for an e-book as for the dead tree edition and there's no manufacturing cost - that's a gold mine. Even better if they're willing to buy beautifully illustrated versions at premium hardcover prices.
Shouldn't be surprising that we have very powerful intellectual property lobbies.

Intellectual property rights make sense as part of a multi-tiered approach to Public Goods. Extent and many practices to make them enforceable are distasteful though, and I often see piracy as preferable to endorsing the current system.

[nenjin]

I think Valve just understood their market better and at an earlier time than the companies that came after them. They had the time to refine their product, build up people's confidence that Digital Distribution was a real thing and increase the size of their catalog.

But they showed a lot of restraint and a real grasp of the concept of value-added too. They didn't go totally apeshit with their DRM and they didn't try some overhead pricing scheme. They added features without a ton of bloat that actually made the platform a thing you wanted to use and interact with instead of just click through to play your games.

Anyways, on topic, I pirated when I couldn't afford games or really needed a true look at it before buying....and I buy games now that I can afford them. I'll use a pirated copy if I don't have to put out any effort, but I don't go trolling torrent lists anymore like I used to. Which is probably good, as enforcement is at higher levels and now most ISPs are doing it.

[Dunamisdeos]

I often see piracy as preferable to endorsing the current system.

^ This. To me, it's not about what I can get for free. It's about changing an unfair system. By simply abiding by and using the system in place, I put my name behind it. It's sort of the old hippie argument, I'm just not expecting government handouts. 

[WealthyRadish]

Eh, a lot of my concern is with what the future may hold, not really what they're doing now. I think the current model of large publishers supporting large games is going to die soon, at least on PC, but replacing it with a distribution monopoly isn't really an improvement.

K, NAO I'M DONE, back on topic we go!

[Sirus]

I often see piracy as preferable to endorsing the current system.

^ This. To me, it's not about what I can get for free. It's about changing an unfair system. By simply abiding by and using the system in place, I put my name behind it. It's sort of the old hippie argument, I'm just not expecting government handouts. 

I've heard this argument a dozen times before, and frankly I don't buy it. You're not going to be changing any established systems by not participating. You need to make life more difficult for the companies doing stuff that you don't want them to do. And no, sending angry emails doesn't really count. Boycotting might work, especially if done in real life. Direct people who buy games from those companies to information about their unsavory practices.

[Dunamisdeos]

You may note the hippie movement didnt pan out. 

Point is, I don't want my name on something I don't support, if I don't have to, and I don't want to buy   will not buy something for 60$ if I'm not damn sure I'll like it. Whether that pans out with your own philosophy is all of you's business.

As far as doing something practical to change the system, I agree that the only way to reach a business is to not buy from them, and convice others to do the same. Publishers will flat out refuse to understand any other form of communication that doesn't involve revenue. Sirus has the right of it.

::EDIT::
Also, I want to say I'm really enjoying this even-handed debate. Keep it up, everyone.

[Sirus]

Eh, hippie movement at least made some strides. You'll note the whole "green food" movement that seems to stem from hippie culture.

But the way I see it, if you pirate a game to play it, you're still telling the developers of that game that you enjoy their products. Their response is to make more of the same stuff, while instituting more draconian measures to try and prevent more pirating. Eventually, you'll get to a point where it simply isn't worth the effort to pirate, and then what? Will you break down to buy the game, or go without? Either way, DRM technology will have grown hugely in that time frame.

[pisskop]

About everyone who supports piracy seems to say they'd end up buying a game they enjoy for free already...  I don't believe it.

GirlinHat should put up a poll.  Id like to see figures on this.

[The Darkling Wolf]

Seems a bit pointless to have a poll if you've already resigned yourself to accusing us of lying.

[pisskop]

I mean about piracy, if you do it.

And I'm not accusing, simply expressing my concern betweem the percieved ideal and the real.

[motorbitch]

well, pirates are customers.
about every survey shows that these that pirate the most are usually also these that buy the most.
just dont expect people to buy every shit just because they ever tryed it once. that would be stupid.

[Dunamisdeos]

If developers were forced by law to release a demo of every game they make, and this demo was required to accurately reflect game content and feel of play, then dunamisdeos would be a happy man.

[Alastar]

Some pirates are potential customers, but definitely not all.
I practically don't exist as a customer any more as I won't buy media burdened with DRM that isn't trivial to get around, unskippable ads/piracy warnings or anything else that'll cause me undue annoyance.