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Author Topic: Bitcoins, e-currency or just fancy crap?  (Read 31166 times)

Leafsnail

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Re: Bitcoins, e-currency or just fancy crap?
« Reply #285 on: March 10, 2014, 08:25:58 pm »

Well as I understand it they could also vote to change the protocol however they liked.
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lemon10

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Re: Bitcoins, e-currency or just fancy crap?
« Reply #286 on: March 10, 2014, 10:16:26 pm »

I don't think it would be easy to make money that way. First off it would require a pretty big inital investment, and once people start to notice their bitcoins are missing, the value would crash to 0 very rapidly. So you would have to be able to move enough bitcoins rapidly enough that you could make more money selling them in a few hours then you would be able to if you sold your 51% at regular market price. That isn't impossible, but it would be a very risky move.

You don't need a majority of bitcoins, you need a majority of the bitcoin infrastructure.  If all the transactions in the world were being handled by a single 300 dollar computer, then it would only cost 300 dollars to have say over who owns all the bitcoins.  You wouldn't need to own a single bitcoin yourself.
After looking it up a bit: Yeah, it seems like that would be quite a bit cheaper then I thought. That said, controlling half the bitcon infrastructure would cost hundreds of millions of dollars worth of processing power in an initial investment. As it stands, not even the most powerful botnet is able to pull this off, while it might be possible if the largest botnets worked together, not even this would end up getting them much money in all probability, especially for the effort.
It would be hugely damaging to bitcoins in general (since people would notice very quickly, and the prices would crash to 0), but that's probably about all it would accomplish, besides wasting your own time.
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Putnam

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Re: Bitcoins, e-currency or just fancy crap?
« Reply #287 on: March 10, 2014, 10:29:48 pm »

Mining pools count.

lemon10

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Re: Bitcoins, e-currency or just fancy crap?
« Reply #288 on: March 10, 2014, 10:45:08 pm »

Yeah, if the three largest bitcoin mining networks got together they could also do it. While they could make a fair chunk of money that way, it seems to me that:
A) All of the people running the large networks are probably really rich. Not billionare rich, but they probably were early adopters that made tens of millions of dollars off it.
B) It also seems unlikely since the type of person that would set up a bitcoin mining network probably believe in bitcoin as a currency, and thus wouldn't be willing to crash the currency unless it would hugely benefit them.
C) It would be regarded as a criminal activity, they could escape persecution pretty easily I suspect, but it would still be problem (especially if they want to stay in the western world).
D) They wouldn't really make that much money off of it. Sure, they could make tens of millions as a group in the few hours before the price dies, but that isn't really that when considering that they all probably have nearly that much money already even without criminal activity.
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Frumple

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Re: Bitcoins, e-currency or just fancy crap?
« Reply #289 on: March 10, 2014, 10:48:58 pm »

... why would it be considered criminal, again?
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lemon10

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Re: Bitcoins, e-currency or just fancy crap?
« Reply #290 on: March 10, 2014, 11:04:23 pm »

The current law isn't really up to dealing with that type of theft (eg. defrauding people and taking their money, but using your control of the network to keep your bitcoins), but I have little doubt that they would fall afoul of at least one of the myriad anti-hacking laws, and that since they aren't the right type of criminal (eg. wall street), the justice system wouldn't overlook their actions.

Since the law is almost certainly behind the times, I wouldn't be surprised if they managed to get off scott free (after a few years of legal problems). And if they left the western world before legal action could be brought against them they probably would have almost no problems at all.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 11:31:57 pm by lemon10 »
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mainiac

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Re: Bitcoins, e-currency or just fancy crap?
« Reply #291 on: March 11, 2014, 12:31:20 am »

B) It also seems unlikely since the type of person that would set up a bitcoin mining network probably believe in bitcoin as a currency, and thus wouldn't be willing to crash the currency unless it would hugely benefit them.

The kind of person running it right now, interested in the future of bitcoin.  But that's like saying someone wont hack and ATM because you typical ATM technician wants to keep working at the bank.  A hacker obviously is going to have different motives.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 12:32:56 am by mainiac »
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alway

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Re: Bitcoins, e-currency or just fancy crap?
« Reply #292 on: March 11, 2014, 01:05:45 am »

The current law isn't really up to dealing with that type of theft (eg. defrauding people and taking their money, but using your control of the network to keep your bitcoins), but I have little doubt that they would fall afoul of at least one of the myriad anti-hacking laws, and that since they aren't the right type of criminal (eg. wall street), the justice system wouldn't overlook their actions.

Since the law is almost certainly behind the times, I wouldn't be surprised if they managed to get off scott free (after a few years of legal problems). And if they left the western world before legal action could be brought against them they probably would have almost no problems at all.
All that assumes they live in the US. Hackers with the chops to pull it off typically don't. There's probably like 2 or 3 countries tops that it would generate legal problems with, if any at all. And it's all anonymous to boot.

Unless the job had obvious ties to known enemies of the state, no state would even bother going through the process of investigating. Most official policies are along the lines of 'you do this at your own risk.' No major country has any stake in the success or failure of bitcoin any more than they do dogecoin or kanyecoin. Most that happens is they put out a PSA that effectively states "Only idiots would pay money for something with an obvious exploit that was apparent for years."
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Sheb

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Re: Bitcoins, e-currency or just fancy crap?
« Reply #293 on: March 11, 2014, 03:31:10 am »

mainiac: He was not talking about a random hacker, but about the 3 mains mining pools uniting to control 51% of computing power.
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lemon10

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Re: Bitcoins, e-currency or just fancy crap?
« Reply #294 on: March 11, 2014, 05:20:32 am »

B) It also seems unlikely since the type of person that would set up a bitcoin mining network probably believe in bitcoin as a currency, and thus wouldn't be willing to crash the currency unless it would hugely benefit them.

The kind of person running it right now, interested in the future of bitcoin.  But that's like saying someone wont hack and ATM because you typical ATM technician wants to keep working at the bank.  A hacker obviously is going to have different motives.
Well, its more like saying that the founder of a bank won't steal from his bank because he believes in it.
Now, if he screwed up and has tons of debt? Then yeah, he might steal from it anyways. But no matter what its a pretty big incentive not to.

The current law isn't really up to dealing with that type of theft (eg. defrauding people and taking their money, but using your control of the network to keep your bitcoins), but I have little doubt that they would fall afoul of at least one of the myriad anti-hacking laws, and that since they aren't the right type of criminal (eg. wall street), the justice system wouldn't overlook their actions.

Since the law is almost certainly behind the times, I wouldn't be surprised if they managed to get off scott free (after a few years of legal problems). And if they left the western world before legal action could be brought against them they probably would have almost no problems at all.
All that assumes they live in the US. Hackers with the chops to pull it off typically don't. There's probably like 2 or 3 countries tops that it would generate legal problems with, if any at all. And it's all anonymous to boot.

Unless the job had obvious ties to known enemies of the state, no state would even bother going through the process of investigating. Most official policies are along the lines of 'you do this at your own risk.' No major country has any stake in the success or failure of bitcoin any more than they do dogecoin or kanyecoin. Most that happens is they put out a PSA that effectively states "Only idiots would pay money for something with an obvious exploit that was apparent for years."
Exactly as Sheb said. One of the largest problems with charging hackers for things is finding out who did it, then proving it beyond a shadow of a doubt. If you know who did it (because there is only like a dozen people who could do it, and it would leave huge tracks pointing back to their network) then they will probably be prosecuted.

There is also the issue of responsibility, it would be like twitter selling all their password data to hackers (and getting caught doing it). I have no doubt that the US government would be down on them like a ton of bricks, as would any western country. If you lived in Russia or China or the third world, you probably would escape trouble, but I suspect that the people (groups?) running the bitcoin mining networks live in the western world.

And finally doing this would be a huge huge thing. It would have a cost in the billions of dollars, and I suspect many goverments would take action just to be seen doing something.

Could they survive the lawsuits and avoid prison? Quite possibly, but they would still be persecuted in the western world.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 05:51:47 am by lemon10 »
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And with a mighty leap, the evil Conservative flies through the window, escaping our heroes once again!
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Sergarr

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Re: Bitcoins, e-currency or just fancy crap?
« Reply #295 on: March 11, 2014, 05:49:45 am »

So what happened to the dogecoin?
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mainiac

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Re: Bitcoins, e-currency or just fancy crap?
« Reply #296 on: March 11, 2014, 10:08:44 am »

mainiac: He was not talking about a random hacker, but about the 3 mains mining pools uniting to control 51% of computing power.

Yes but what if the bar to be a majority falls.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Sheb

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Re: Bitcoins, e-currency or just fancy crap?
« Reply #297 on: March 11, 2014, 10:10:30 am »

I don't think I understand you.
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mainiac

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Re: Bitcoins, e-currency or just fancy crap?
« Reply #298 on: March 11, 2014, 10:12:55 am »

I don't think I understand you.

As the bitcoin process continues the amount of computing power used will naturally fall while the value of bitcoin naturally rises.  So while it might take a billion dollar investment to try and strongarm a bitcoin market worth 10 billion at some point, it might take a 100 million dollar investment to strongarm a bitcoin market worth 20 billion dollars later.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Sheb

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Re: Bitcoins, e-currency or just fancy crap?
« Reply #299 on: March 11, 2014, 10:16:14 am »

Why would it be so?
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