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[Nonsequitorian]

People have worshipped stupider things, such as...um, your least-liked religon's god.

Or for that matter, your religion's least-liked god powerful entity. Difference. You may be a catholic and hate islam, so allah would be your least liked god. Or you may be a catholic, and thus the devil would fit the description. There are people who worship both (however silly worshipping the "bad guy" may be).

bad gyt being the devil not allah

[Carp McDwarfEater]

People have worshipped stupider things, such as...um, your least-liked religon's god.

Or for that matter, your religion's least-liked god powerful entity. Difference. You may be a catholic and hate islam, so allah would be your least liked god. Or you may be a catholic, and thus the devil would fit the description. There are people who worship both (however silly worshipping the "bad guy" may be).

bad gyt being the devil not allah

The hilarious part is that 'Allah' just means 'God' in Arabic, and Islams, Jews, and Christians all worship the same god...

First off, why is an affinity needed to work magic? Second, how are elves the only people who can have an affinity for magic? Third off, how is elven skill with trees related to hot springs? I might be wrong, but I don't think hot springs are made of wood...

An affinity isn't needed, it just means magical fountains and buildings would be a lot more common and would make sense. I did not claim that elves are the only ones who could have an affinity for magic, just that out of the three main races (goblin, dwarf, and elf) elves are probably the most magical.

And of course hot springs are made of wood, they grow on trees. However, I was only using that as an example of how elves use magic to control nature and the like.

[GreatWyrmGold]

People have worshipped stupider things, such as...um, your least-liked religon's god.

Or for that matter, your religion's least-liked god powerful entity. Difference. You may be a catholic and hate islam, so allah would be your least liked god. Or you may be a catholic, and thus the devil would fit the description. There are people who worship both (however silly worshipping the "bad guy" may be).

bad gyt being the devil not allah

The hilarious part is that 'Allah' just means 'God' in Arabic, and Islams, Jews, and Christians all worship the same god...

It'd be funnier if they could see it that way...

First off, why is an affinity needed to work magic? Second, how are elves the only people who can have an affinity for magic? Third off, how is elven skill with trees related to hot springs? I might be wrong, but I don't think hot springs are made of wood...

An affinity isn't needed, it just means magical fountains and buildings would be a lot more common and would make sense. I did not claim that elves are the only ones who could have an affinity for magic, just that out of the three main races (goblin, dwarf, and elf) elves are probably the most magical.

And of course hot springs are made of wood, they grow on trees. However, I was only using that as an example of how elves use magic to control nature and the like.

1. Humans and dwarves would still be able to have hot springs, though. And since elves have sacred trees, a pool of boiling water doesn't seem like a big-target religious icon for them...
2. Elves don't really "control" nature so much as befriend it. Besides, there's a big difference between a living tree and a hot spring. You might as well say that an auto mechanic should be able to program a computer, because cars and computers are both high-tech.

[Carp McDwarfEater]

Elves worship nature spirits. How they do that or what they use for a shrine isn't known, but I think there is a ThreeToe story where the spirit dwells in a lake and the elves worship there (correct me if I'm wrong). So they probably could have magical fountains as shrines, just so not every holy site is a big tree. But all I said was that elves should have magical fountains, which wouldn't necessarily be places of worship. I'm indifferent as to whether a few priests would stand around.


And of course humans and dwarves could have hot springs. I could see dwarves even regarding them as holy sites, but humans would probably just use them as water sources, place to dump trash, or tourist attractions. Or all three.

[GoombaGeek]

So why are hot springs as magic sites bad and what are the superior options, or is this just from a nebulous definition of what seems "fitting"?

[GreatWyrmGold]

Elves worship nature spirits. How they do that or what they use for a shrine isn't known, but I think there is a ThreeToe story where the spirit dwells in a lake and the elves worship there (correct me if I'm wrong). So they probably could have magical fountains as shrines, just so not every holy site is a big tree. But all I said was that elves should have magical fountains, which wouldn't necessarily be places of worship. I'm indifferent as to whether a few priests would stand around.

And of course humans and dwarves could have hot springs. I could see dwarves even regarding them as holy sites, but humans would probably just use them as water sources, place to dump trash, or tourist attractions. Or all three.

Why couldn't humans have hot springs as holy sites?

So why are hot springs as magic sites bad and what are the superior options, or is this just from a nebulous definition of what seems "fitting"?

If that was aimed at me, I have nothing against hot springs as magical or holy sites. However, it shouldn't be restricted to only elves or dwarves.

[GoombaGeek]

I like the idea of race-based magic and having every civilization perform different rituals makes them unique. There are different archetypes to every race in Dwarf Fortress and having them all use the same magic isn't exciting. They all have different beliefs and cultures and these should at least be reflected in what they do, so that we can include all kinds of works and spells and rituals without sticking to one really boring standardized system that tries too hard to be realistic, and in fact I've already made some posts about this but it's not for the hot pits full of water thread, and I don't get why for three pages there has been a continuous discussion about why or why not elves should like the hot water more than people do. We already have racial preferences for sites and materials and clothing and weapons, so there will definitely be preferences for venerating things more than others, and it's even been explained already, numerous times.

Dwarves like it:

Dwarves are creatures of the ground and seem more likely to venerate the deep springs heated with the fire of the earth.

Humans like it for different reasons:

Humans just like being warm.

Elves are close to nature and like it:

Elves would worship them if they were already in a sacred site like the holy forest or whatever.

Because elves are the ones with an affinity for magic, and I think some of the ThreeToe stories even mention them having the power to use magic to bend wood and make trees grow together and such. You could make an argument for gypsy humans or people like that making a magic fountain, but it makes less sense to me.

Because the springs are in the sacred elven forest.

Goblins are probably indifferent.

First off, why is an affinity needed to work magic? Second, how are elves the only people who can have an affinity for magic? Third off, how is elven skill with trees related to hot springs? I might be wrong, but I don't think hot springs are made of wood...

1. People who can't read don't get to necromance. Skill will always be a factor, on an individual level. Racial affinity is for different divisions of magic.
2. They are not. They have an affinity towards nature-based magic because they are close to nature.
3. Because they are close to nature and not just the forest (which is, in fact, not a solid block of nothing but trees. but in fact a biosphere containing many things).

[GreatWyrmGold]

About your arguments as to why affinity is needed:
1. Skill can be learned by anyone. Affinity only goes so far,
2. Elves have an affinity with forests. Don't buy into their propaganda.
3. Actually, it seems that elves are mostly affiliated with forests. I'll come up with some well-reasoned and witty explanations as to why when I'm less sleepy, but for now consider where they live.

And some goblins, at least, would like hot springs. They are the only race to settle in tundras. Those are cold.

[Nonsequitorian]

I don't know why Elves would ever like hot springs. With their lack of knowledge of geology, they'd probably think that a hotspring was hot because it had a wood furnace beneath it. Also, trees don't tend to grow around the springs:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Why would they like them?

I'd say that the only ones who'd really like them are humans and goblins. Dwarves have access to things much warmer and much more powerful. One puddle is about as interesting as the next.

Humans and Goblins, being at least relatively self-interested, would want them for heat or whatever. We love hotsprings, they're great because they make us feel good. Maybe Dwarves would feel the same way, but goblins definitely would.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I agree with all people who don't like the magic sites idea. Magic as a force seems silly to me. I don't see magic as a big web that covers the earth and is stronger in some places like some people do. Why would some place be more magical than some place else? Magic, as I see it, is knowledge that other people don't understand. What's a hot spring going to do? Boil your skin off until you obtain nirvana? It's a pit with water that's warm, not much more.


That said though, although a dwarf would see through the geological feature that is a hot spring, I could see a goblin or human finding it holy. Not god holy, but like "I went down to the river hot spring to pray" and wash all the sins off holy. Goblins might not wash their sins off, but they might splash around and say "Ha ha fuck you we're warm, you trash!" to some yaks or something. If it's hot enough, it could be a proving ground or a torture device.

Holy has to be defined. A deity is a holy figure, but is he himself holy? He is probably just some demon that people worship. Something sacred is used for spiritual purposes (say praying to Armok), but you don't use Armok himself to pray to Armok. Does that make Armok himself not necessarily holy? I can see a hot spring being holy, but not being worshipped. What would a human pray too if a hot spring was worshipped? I can only see it as being an accessory to a myth. Maybe that was where they thought their demon deity crawed out of hell from, and now it's a place some people like to visit. Other than that, though? I don't see it happening.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

People have worshipped stupider things, such as...um, your least-liked religon's god.

Or for that matter, your religion's least-liked god powerful entity. Difference. You may be a catholic and hate islam, so allah would be your least liked god. Or you may be a catholic, and thus the devil would fit the description. There are people who worship both (however silly worshipping the "bad guy" may be).

bad guy being the devil not allah

The hilarious part is that 'Allah' just means 'God' in Arabic, and Islams, Jews, and Christians all worship the same god...

It'd be funnier if they could see it that way...

I was just trying to draw an example and not use the word "God" as the head-honcho of a religion that wasn't Christianity. I probably could have used Zeus and Hades, but whatever. Wasn't trying to sound ignorant of religion (though being none of those, I can't really say I'm not.).

[GreatWyrmGold]

Knowledge may be power, but not literally. Magic is more than simply knowing stuff. You can say that a firearm or automobile is magic to someone who doesn't understand it all you like, but raising the dead with a wave of the hand or other "spells"go beyond that and straight into breaking the laws of physics. What does the energy come from to power the zombies indefinitely without food, drink, or rest? How does a bronze colossus move? Where does the heat from a fireball come from? That's pretty much just thermodynamics there. Clearly, you need more than knowledge to work magic, you also need power.

I understand your point about religion, though.

[Nonsequitorian]

Yes, OK, but it is magic. I don't like to think of it as something that has more power in some places or has different powers with different beings. I don't like to think of the power that lets a wizard cast purple dildo missiles is some inherint thing that happens on a planet like a magnetic north or an equator is. And why would a hot spring be more special than any other lake, or any other meadow? The only reason I'd let some place have some sort of magic-ness more than another place (excluding good and bad biomes, because they're not as much a place as they are an area. It can be anything in that area, or any combination of anything) would be if something like a god died and was burried their. Something like that could warrent extra sexy powers. A hot spring in real life isn't magic, why would it be here?

But I'll go bitch about my dislike of magic as a "thing" in the blah blah magic thread.

[GreatWyrmGold]

If magical effects can be caused by events, why can't they occur naturally? After all, the world is probably older than the gods; that's lots of time for things to happen.

[Nonsequitorian]

I'd only think that a magical site could be caused by an event if the event was a god's rotting corpse, and rotting god corpses leak very powerful chemicals into the ground and air.

I don't really like the idea of any places being more magical than other places to begin with, but I could tolerate a demon's favorite pissing place being more powerful than somewhere elses.

For natural occuring magic places, what would have caused the magic? Just some good smelling flowers wont make my "cause the undead to have an orgy" spell to be any more powerful, but I could see the gravestone of the god of the undead (which is a bit ironic for a god of the undead) making undead powers in that area more powerful.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Again, the world is old. Most likely, many pantheons have come and gone before the current set. That's plenty of gods to have death sites.

[Nonsequitorian]

But in the current way the world is genned, it isn't old. I can start a fort at 2 years. That's enough time for a baker to start a pretty good bakery, not enough for much more than that.