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Author Topic: closing the gates of hell (spoilers)  (Read 9009 times)

triato

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closing the gates of hell (spoilers)
« on: November 17, 2012, 03:32:59 pm »

As I understand it, it is imposible to survive opening a passage to hell. This sugestion makes it posible but very hard and also gives the adventure mode player something to do as a quest or by his own initiative.

DF mod

Instead of having a continuous flow of demons, they would come in waves, big and strong waves. The thing is to give the player time to cap the hole after he defeats a wave.

The hole can be capped with adamantine walls.

Before the wall, an adamantine hatch or door can be installed, it will eventually be destroyed by demons, but it will slow them down.

If the things above seem to easy, some of all of the following can be done:

Some time after opening hell, a big explosion creates new tunnels that reach the closest cave, this would counter the tactic of making a long corridor that can be capped far away from hell entrance.

Having a simultaneus night creature/undead/etc. invasion above (or similar). The argument is that demons call evil to them.

Hell can only be closed at entrance, the adamantine wall you make should only touch other adamantine walls (natural or constructed). The argumet would be that adamantine is holy or simply too durable for demons to destroy. After all, Hell is enclosed in adamantine right?

Wave strenght and numbers could be somewhat randomized. The argument is that not all the demons in hell are just waiting at the place where you are mining.

Your depressed dwarfs turn hostile. They may also become monsters somehow (Doom style)

Your dead reanimate and become hostile (some may be friendly too). Other dead creatures in your refuse pile reanimate too.

Plagues, husking clouds, etc may be generated from the hole, this effects may have a short duration and come with every wave.


You can make up other mechanisms to make it posible but hard. I think that if all of them are implemented it would be imposible to stop the demons, maybe it could be done if the hardening mechanisms are randomized (you may get only the demon waves, have a few hardening mechanisms or all of them).


Adventure mode.

In Dwarf talk several scenarios have been discussed about a hell breaking scenario. In general the idea is for it to be a really big trouble for the world with demon numbers increasing in the surface. The posibilities range from a demmon army invading all the land as a united force, to demons spliting into groups and fighting among themselves.

I sugest 2 more posibilities:

Portal scenario

The first demons to enter conquest the fortress and not wanting to share power with the demons still in hell, close the entrance with a magical portal that lets only the demons the choose get in. In this scenario demon population above ground increases slowly and fewer powerfull demons are spawned.

Portal can be created in other ways like taking the adamantine sword or when the stars are right a portal can be created in the surface (maybe those portals can have a limited duration).

The adventurer can use magical items or eventually maybe even his own magic to close the portal. But if he does not destroy their presence in the fortress, other demons may reopen the portal.

Becouse of how dire the situation is, other powers may be involved like gods, angels (if implemented), etc. All races are more likelly to get united (not goblins) or at least stop their wars. If dwarfs open hell they may get attacked or denied trade.

Direct passage without portal

A worst case scenario, either the demmons getting in at first are not that selfish or they belive themselves powerfull enough to boss wichever demons arrive afterwards. Demon population in the world increase faster and lots of powerfull demons enter the world.

An adamantine door or hatch was to me taken to cap the hole. Becouse of the weight you have to take companions.

Becouse of how dire the situation is, other powers may be involved like gods, angels (if implemented), etc. All races are more likelly to get united (not goblins) or at least stop their wars. If dwarfs open hell they may get attacked or denied trade. All of this is more likelly in this scenario.

A direct entrance would make it more likelly to have more ill effects on the land over the hole and in the fortress, evil type biomes could spread fast, the passages of the fortress could become contaminated, husking clouds could be generated, etc.

I realize not all of this may be posible now, and that some features may need to be implemented before.

What do you think?
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10ebbor10

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Re: closing the gates of hell (spoilers)
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2012, 03:52:54 pm »

There's in fact only one really long wave followed by a continuus trickle of demons. Players have often defeated and even colonized the circus, once even purely on manpower.\

But yeah, rebalancing hell might be a good thing.
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darknessofthenight

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Re: closing the gates of hell (spoilers)
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2012, 04:53:02 pm »

What I think would work is when hell is breached hundreds of goblin like creatures and maybe twenty of the current demons would come out of hell. Also I have defeated Hell but the deaths caused by the fight created a tantrum spiral that destroyed my fortress.
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: closing the gates of hell (spoilers)
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2012, 05:21:23 pm »

Since Hell has been conquered and colonized multiple times, that's not an inevitable conclusion.
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triato

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Re: closing the gates of hell (spoilers)
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2012, 05:33:20 pm »

There's in fact only one really long wave followed by a continuus trickle of demons. Players have often defeated and even colonized the circus, once even purely on manpower.\

But yeah, rebalancing hell might be a good thing.

Ok, I donīt seem to read the forums enough (or play), also I have allways been defeated by hell :(. Only opened it two times, first by mistake.

But anyway, the mechanisms could still be implemented, sometimes we might want to close hell instead of fighting it all the way no?

And for adventure mode it would give things for the player to do and create an interesting plot.
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Blade Master Model 42

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Re: closing the gates of hell (spoilers)
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2012, 04:50:10 am »

It's already possible to seal hell, isn't it? Options include bridge systems and obsidianization systems. The latter works better, I'd think.

And yeah, Hell has been colonized. I was there.  8)

GreatWyrmGold

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Re: closing the gates of hell (spoilers)
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2012, 05:38:05 pm »

Some way to close Hell sounds good, but...
Well, the bit of code which controls what happens when Hell is opened is allegedly named "endgame." Whether or not that's true, it fits.
Hell isn't supposed to be something you stop. It is a stop. The last one on the last train to Fun. For sealing Hell as a game mechanic to make sense from the standpoint of the game itself, Hell's "purpose" needs to change.
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Cool Guy

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Re: closing the gates of hell (spoilers)
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2012, 09:28:00 pm »

Hell isn't unbeatable, I myself have beaten it and then created a demon circus. Then I don't like the reanimated dead idea, that's the necromancer's job, and adamantine is special but its not that special. You should be able to seal it up however you'd like just like always.
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: closing the gates of hell (spoilers)
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2012, 10:26:37 pm »

It's beatable, but it's supposed to be the end.
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Revanchist

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Re: closing the gates of hell (spoilers)
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2012, 10:35:39 pm »

If it is the end, shouldn't measures be taken to ensure it's unbeatable? Also, how would you get something unbeatable in this game? A bolivian army ending would not cut it here.
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: closing the gates of hell (spoilers)
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2012, 10:44:44 pm »

The second point explains the first.
But, seriously. Think about it. You won in a fight where you are outnumbered by beings strong enough to rip a single, well-armed dwarf to shreds in seconds, without their abilities. You literally drove off the forces of Hell. What else is there?
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Cool Guy

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Re: closing the gates of hell (spoilers)
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2012, 11:53:19 am »

The second point explains the first.
But, seriously. Think about it. You won in a fight where you are outnumbered by beings strong enough to rip a single, well-armed dwarf to shreds in seconds, without their abilities. You literally drove off the forces of Hell. What else is there?
The forces of the hell of hell? Where not even demons dare to tread?
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AutomataKittay

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Re: closing the gates of hell (spoilers)
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2012, 12:17:48 pm »

If it is the end, shouldn't measures be taken to ensure it's unbeatable? Also, how would you get something unbeatable in this game? A bolivian army ending would not cut it here.

What is there left once you've beaten the unbeatable in a sandbox game? Ne plus ultra.

That is the end. Because, there are nothing more beyond, except what you want to do. Personally I think that going too deep and surviving as a fortress is the 'game winner', because you've conquered the hardest of the hard within the world, that need either very powerful military ( which could wipe out enemy civs anyway if they could do it through sheer manpower ) or being smart with machines ( which can be harder than whole process of building a happy fortress ).

Also, being Truly Unbeatable would be reviving 2d's "You die" after mining a few chunk of bluemetal ore :D

I honestly don't like the idea that you must die once you go beyond a point. Why? Just simply why? I think current way is perfect, you die because you was overran.

(As for the op's evil stuff suggestion, some player's managed to turn husks against demons, even managed to kill husks of their own dwarves in full steel )

The second point explains the first.
But, seriously. Think about it. You won in a fight where you are outnumbered by beings strong enough to rip a single, well-armed dwarf to shreds in seconds, without their abilities. You literally drove off the forces of Hell. What else is there?
The forces of the hell of hell? Where not even demons dare to tread?

I don't think there're enough room in the bottom :D
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: closing the gates of hell (spoilers)
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2012, 08:08:41 pm »

The second point explains the first.
But, seriously. Think about it. You won in a fight where you are outnumbered by beings strong enough to rip a single, well-armed dwarf to shreds in seconds, without their abilities. You literally drove off the forces of Hell. What else is there?
The forces of the hell of hell? Where not even demons dare to tread?
So, defeating your own dwarves?
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Rakushun

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Re: closing the gates of hell (spoilers)
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2012, 01:47:03 am »

Hell is just silly. You can carve fortifications in your adamantine spires to reveal Hell and the demons just hang out in the spire impotently forever after.
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