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[pisskop]

I would like to object to the idea of being 'born gay'.  nothing that isn't directly inherited (i.e. physical) is 'born' into somebody.  Same goes for homosexuality, playing basketball, interest in philosophy, etc.  Its all got a large amount of environment in it. (we could add that, maybe as a result of childhood interactions).

I also think GWG is very correct in what he has been saying.  Its not practical at the moment, and you [could] mod in a prefstring to help you RP.  Don't know about altering behavior, but at least mod in a prefstring.  Takes all of 10 seconds.

[weenog]

I would like to object to the idea of being 'born gay'.  nothing that isn't directly inherited (i.e. physical) is 'born' into somebody.  Same goes for homosexuality, playing basketball, interest in philosophy, etc.  Its all got a large amount of environment in it. (we could add that, maybe as a result of childhood interactions).

This gets into the problem of whether the brain is the seat of consciousness, and if so, how much influence its physical structure has on the way the owner thinks. Seems a bit heavy to get into here, but that objection isn't on an especially solid foundation.

[misko27]

Closing statements:

I think unhappy dwarves being able to tell the difference between sad and angry and reacting accordingly is a somewhat more pressing concern.

I do agree it shouldn't really be implemented until any of that stuff actually matters, though. It would make sense for it to be integrated into a broader update of how the game handles social dynamics and relationships.

If anyone cares, my views are still the same as last time I posted: Should be in eventually, but it should wait for more romance to be present.

So, in concluision, if it is implemented, it should be part of a wider-sweep of things, to increase general relationship realism, and not a "lol gay dwarves are gay" gimmick. I am for this, but not as a "Toss gay dwarves in there for teh lulz,"

In conclusion, I was first Nyah. Also what I said earlier.

I would like to object to the idea of being 'born gay'.  nothing that isn't directly inherited (i.e. physical) is 'born' into somebody.  Same goes for homosexuality, playing basketball, interest in philosophy, etc.  Its all got a large amount of environment in it. (we could add that, maybe as a result of childhood interactions).

I also think GWG is very correct in what he has been saying.  Its not practical at the moment, and you [could] mod in a prefstring to help you RP.  Don't know about altering behavior, but at least mod in a prefstring.  Takes all of 10 seconds.

But what about genetics? Enviroment is massively important, but a enviroment that is the same for all people would still turn out different individuals. Some people are born different from others, though not necessarily gay. Teh fact is, if you lived my life you'd be substantially different from yourself now, but you wouldn't be me.

[pisskop]

True, my genetics would respond differently.  Genetics and enviornment go hand in hand.  I personally see any possible 'gay gene' as a variable.  If you have gene X than you are more likely to get cancer.  Not guarenteed.  More likely.  To say Dwarf A is gay because he won the genetic lottery and nothing he does will change it is scientifically inaccurate, and serves no purpose other than to simplify a mechanic and reinforce {wrong} popular opinion.  If it is done, let it be done like the rest of the game -done right.

All the books I have ever read, no matter the author, on the subject of homosexuality have said the same thing, and its only the media which continues to refute this.

[weenog]

You do realize that books are a form of media, and that the issue is often muddied (no doubt deliberately in some cases) by failure to differentiate between preferences and behavior, don't you?

[AutomataKittay]

Saying homosexuality's same thing as playing basketball or being interested in philosophy seems pretty insulting to me, as is claiming it's not something born into someone, so to speak. There're quite a bit of history of repression and abuse behind those line of thought, particularly since homosexuality's a pretty big innate part of someone that's quite a bit outside of cultural influence.

Of course, it can be changed so everyone is straight, but that tend to involve psychological torture and abuse

Granted that's just reality, not gameplay mechanism. And there're just wee bit of studies pointing that there are definitely genetic, or at least in-utero influence on sexuality, beyond just environmental uprising.

And there're quite a bit of older works on homosexuality that was pretty anti-homosexual, as well as many modern works with people intentionally denying it.

[10ebbor10]

True, my genetics would respond differently.  Genetics and enviornment go hand in hand.  I personally see any possible 'gay gene' as a variable.  If you have gene X than you are more likely to get cancer.  Not guarenteed.  More likely.  To say Dwarf A is gay because he won the genetic lottery and nothing he does will change it is scientifically inaccurate, and serves no purpose other than to simplify a mechanic and reinforce {wrong} popular opinion.  If it is done, let it be done like the rest of the game -done right.

All the books I have ever read, no matter the author, on the subject of homosexuality have said the same thing, and its only the media which continues to refute this.

Except that you know, they already found said Gay gene. True to be said it's a collection of genes that seem to be severly related to homosexuality, and causality does not imply correlation, and not all gayness is caused by the gene/ vice verse

[pisskop]

Except that you know, they already found said Gay gene. True to be said it's a collection of genes that seem to be severly related to homosexuality, and causality does not imply correlation, and bot all gayness is caused by the gene/ vice verse

ftfy.  To say you are born gay is innaccurate.  You seem to say so yourself.

[10ebbor10]

Except that you know, they already found said Gay gene. True to be said it's a collection of genes that seem to be severly related to homosexuality, and causality does not imply correlation, and bot all gayness is caused by the gene/ vice verse

ftfy.  To say you are born gay is innaccurate.  You seem to say so yourself.

I need to add another correction to that.
They found evidence for the possible existence of the gay gene. They haven't singled out the precise genes yet.

[pisskop]

I do not want to debate over this.  Ill agree to disagree if you'd like...

[G-Flex]

Except that you know, they already found said Gay gene. True to be said it's a collection of genes that seem to be severly related to homosexuality, and causality does not imply correlation, and not all gayness is caused by the gene/ vice verse

... No, there is no "gay gene" or "collection of gay genes". That's highly, highly dubious.


At any rate, it's insulting to say that sexual orientation is a choice, but also unproductive to say that it's determined by nothing but genetics, or at/before birth. Human sexuality is an incredibly complicated thing, and to try to reduce it to anything simple like that is misguided.

[Cool Guy]

I'm not against it at all but I think the topic is much too hot right now. It might alienate a large population of people¹, maybe in the future but I don't think it'll happen anytime soon. It'd probably take a little tinkering with as well because it wouldn't be too common (As it is in real life). Especially since if it was too common I might end up with a fort with nothing but same sex couples and then die of no more baby dwarves being made.

Spoiler: Superscript Refrences (click to show/hide)

¹Even if these people are huge bigots

I would like to reiterate that the Sims has homosexuality. And the Sims is a ton more commercial, mainstream, and probably a ton more sensitive to public opinion than Dwarf Fortress.

Yes, but in Sims is it is much more optional and as you said it is a lot more commercial, if that small part of it's player based stop playing it wouldn't hurt it as much as it would DF

[G-Flex]

Why not? The Sims is a commercial franchise that relies on mass market appeal. DF is a niche product that relies on a devoted fanbase. The former is more susceptible to bad press/alienating closed-minded consumers than the latter.

[lordcooper]

At any rate, it's insulting to say that sexual orientation is a choice

It's also insulting to say that it's never a choice.

[misko27]

So, taking bets on how long till the threads locked. Anyone, anyone?