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[GreatWyrmGold]

The main issue would be the absolute chaos of a million Dwarves going about their own needs and nothing getting done in the game.

...Huh?

The end result would likely have a massive god list of init yes/no options, but when do we actually get to play a game that functions?

We have a functioning game now. Very functional, for an alpha game.
The in it options proposed would not take much time out of Toady's budget, negligible compared to coding the game so the options mean something. This hardly makes a good argument against adding an init option.

[Di]

I return to this thread to reiterate and elaborate my previous post.
I'm not to amused by this idea.
You see, if it was me I'd deliberately added them... along with homophobes, religious zealots, racism, xenophobia and other things that colour our life. Dwarves would fight each other and squads of guards would work overtime to maintain a bare resemblance of order in a fort under constant onslaught of elves adamant in their desire to defend every last leaf in the world, humans offended by the fact that someone as dissolute (or stiff)  as you dared to settle in a places too close to their villages and perfidious goblins staling dwarven children, bringing them up spoiled brats and sending them back to you disguised as a peasants so they'd immerse your civilization in sin and debauchery.  (yes, i'm a horrible person)

But Toady makes living from this game so I don't think he'll just plunge all the way down with it. And without their counterpart homos are as boring as snail farm. Unless they bring some new mechanics in game this will happen:
Announcement: "The manliest warrior Likot Onulbarad and his brother in arms Morul Tulonolin has maried!"
Overseer: "Shit, this is kinda cute and I'm glad for you guys, but could could you finally KILL THAT DAMNED FIRE SPEWING KANGAROO DOWN THERE?!"

So, this stuff probably should be moved in goal list somewhere near graphical interface except if it doesn't take longer than a coffee break to code in.

[pisskop]

and I had this pegged for dead.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I return to this thread to reiterate and elaborate my previous post.
I'm not to amused by this idea.
You see, if it was me I'd deliberately added them... along with homophobes, religious zealots, racism, xenophobia and other things that colour our life. Dwarves would fight each other and squads of guards would work overtime to maintain a bare resemblance of order in a fort under constant onslaught of elves adamant in their desire to defend every last leaf in the world, humans offended by the fact that someone as dissolute (or stiff)  as you dared to settle in a places too close to their villages and perfidious goblins staling dwarven children, bringing them up spoiled brats and sending them back to you disguised as a peasants so they'd immerse your civilization in sin and debauchery.  (yes, i'm a horrible person)

But Toady makes living from this game so I don't think he'll just plunge all the way down with it. And without their counterpart homos are as boring as snail farm. Unless they bring some new mechanics in game this will happen:
Announcement: "The manliest warrior Likot Onulbarad and his brother in arms Morul Tulonolin has maried!"
Overseer: "Shit, this is kinda cute and I'm glad for you guys, but could could you finally KILL THAT DAMNED FIRE SPEWING KANGAROO DOWN THERE?!"

So, this stuff probably should be moved in goal list somewhere near graphical interface except if it doesn't take longer than a coffee break to code in.

First off, when have you known Toady to code something big in without spending months on related topics?
Second off, and this is aimed at everyone: Is it fair to say that the consensus among those posting in this thread is that homosexuality needs to wait for other features?

[Alu]

Well I'd like to see homosexuality and more complex gender ingame. Why do people get chaught up so much in the sex question. It plays no role ingame, since they are fertilized by spores.
Its about attraction, love and stuff.
Sure, there are other pressing matters, but I don't thing its too complex to get the basics in like same-sex relationship and marriage.

[pisskop]

But why other than the sake of having them?  It would play zero part in this version.  Not a lick, excepting another random variable.  One more thing for the comp to calculate.  It's just a minor detour in the game, esp at this point.

Like gods are, only gods do something.  They curse things.  A homosexual dwarf would be either no different than a regular dwarf (excepting prefstring or some RP text) or sterile (while maybe this is somewhat advantageous its also not really contributing)

Whether or not I think DF needs sexual orientation aside, it plays no part currently (nor can it).

edit:  Also, I'm sure its been brought up, but homosexuality is not a black/white concurence.  Its a spectrum. . .

[Telgin]

Saying that a dwarf cracks his knuckles serves no point in the current game other than characterization, and yet it's in there.  Homosexuality has a greater impact than that already in that it prevents reproduction, which can matter.

[misko27]

t's also easier to code. It's simply a one-off thing. *You crack your knuckles* A easy interaction. As opposed to Homosexuality, which requires a whole other thing to go along with it. If he added it now, for example, I personally would accuse him of Feature Creep, because it's just tacking things on.
 
Note that no one is sayign it shouldn't go in, it should but now is not the time. Dwarven relationships are awfully shallow right now, no real depth to it at all, so adding homosexuality wouldn't even do it justice.

[GreatWyrmGold]

The difference? Cracking knuckles really can't serve any purpose other than characterization, whereas homosexuality SHOULD. Anyways, with romance as it is now, a homosexual marriage would basically be a friendship and nothing more.

[Xantalos]

I think what you all are trying to say is that it SHOULD go in, but not until courtship has been implemented.

[Scelly9]

I think what you all are trying to say is that it SHOULD go in, but not until courtship has been implemented.

This is what I think, just for the record.

[Ronnekk]

What is the role of marriage in dwarven society? If we take the civilizations in human history as a base for analysis, we'll see that marriage was normally a really practical affair where love or attraction didn't play the biggest role. Simply put, people married to have descendants and for status. Even in societies where homosexuality was somehow accepted, marriage between people of the same sex wasn't.

Also let's not forget that when we talk about civilizations that accepted homosexuality, we are almost always talking about pederasty. Pederastic relationships were the most common form of homosexual relationships from the ancient world all the way to the modern era, and only recently pederastic relationships have become less accepted than relationships between two adult men. In fact, if we look at the ancient greeks, we'll see that pederasty was the only form of homosexual relationship widely accepted, and all men were expected to marry a woman and have children, even if they continued to fuck boys in their spare time.

[G-Flex]

What is the role of marriage in dwarven society? If we take the civilizations in human history as a base for analysis, we'll see that marriage was normally a really practical affair where love or attraction didn't play the biggest role. Simply put, people married to have descendants and for status. Even in societies where homosexuality was somehow accepted, marriage between people of the same sex wasn't.

Also let's not forget that when we talk about civilizations that accepted homosexuality, we are almost always talking about pederasty. Pederastic relationships were the most common form of homosexual relationships from the ancient world all the way to the modern era, and only recently pederastic relationships have become less accepted than relationships between two adult men. In fact, if we look at the ancient greeks, we'll see that pederasty was the only form of homosexual relationship widely accepted, and all men were expected to marry a woman and have children, even if they continued to fuck boys in their spare time.

Your understanding of history is pretty damn selective.

[GoombaGeek]

What is the role of marriage in dwarven society? If we take the civilizations in human history as a base for analysis, we'll see that marriage was normally a really practical affair where love or attraction didn't play the biggest role. Simply put, people married to have descendants and for status. Even in societies where homosexuality was somehow accepted, marriage between people of the same sex wasn't.

Also let's not forget that when we talk about civilizations that accepted homosexuality, we are almost always talking about pederasty. Pederastic relationships were the most common form of homosexual relationships from the ancient world all the way to the modern era, and only recently pederastic relationships have become less accepted than relationships between two adult men. In fact, if we look at the ancient greeks, we'll see that pederasty was the only form of homosexual relationship widely accepted, and all men were expected to marry a woman and have children, even if they continued to fuck boys in their spare time.

Your understanding of history is pretty damn selective.

Wikipedia is the quickest way to become a Internet expert.

I like it when people sum up links using their own good head instead of expecting Wikipedia to educate the non-believers.

[Reelya]

The last time this suggestion was made, I outlined a solution that should keep all parties happy. It would be trivial to code, so would be more likely to see light of day in an update. Plus, it would be customizable, and optional, so that the player gets to decide how it affects their game, and the change would have other modding uses, too:-

- Change the hard-coded gender pairing, into caste-based pairing. For the vanilla game, things would work the same, but it'll be trivial to code pairing-rules for 6 castes:

GayMale (pairs with GayMale and BiMale)
BiMale (pairs with GayMale, BiMale, BiFemale, StraightFemale)
StraightMale (pairs with StraightFemale and BiFemale)
GayFemale (pairs with GayFemale and BiFemale)
BiFemale (pairs with StraightMale, BiMale, BiFemale, GayFemale)
StraightFemale (pairs with StraightMale and BiMale)

With this system, sexual orientation would be set at birth (no big deal), you could also hand-code the percentages of each type, making customization easy for the player, actual breeding would still use the [MALE] / [FEMALE] tag system, so no real changes the breeding code. You could also give all the castes of the same gender, the same text descriptions, so you wouldn't know which orientation they were until they grew up and paired.

The same change to pairing based on Castes could also be used to create modded "sub races" or actual social castes in the Dwarf world which only marry ones of their matching social rank, or, mobility could only be allowed to one rank higher or lower. This would work especially well, if the [POP_RATIO] tags for children were to be made a Caste-level tag, taken from either parent.