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[Sabretache]

After reading some of the thread I have come up with an idea that could help with the whole 'control, usefulness and dangers' of creating golems. I think that dwarven priests and rampaging golems seem like good ideas but there is a way we could combine them better. If we use the assumption that the golems run on some type of 'spiritual power' given to them by priests, it is possible that they may require a 'spirit field or Emitter' to operate and remain loyal. The 'Emitter' could be some sort of special religious creation requiring some sort of offering to function(?) or simply operates by priests worshiping it. There could also be some type of 'amplifier' which runs in a similar way and can extend the field's range. Anyway, any golem near a Emitter would function at full capacity and have no chance of rampaging while a golem further away and in a weaker part of the field would be prone to inefficiency at its job and the possibility of rampaging. I think that in terms of war golems that this would be balanced as you would require a whole network of these spiritual conduits to keep the golems in check. Also going from the idea of war golems, maybe the opening of the HFS would send 'spiritual tremors' through the system and make some golems go mad.

These are just some ideas I was thinking of, tell me what you think and if their would be any issues with them. Thank You

[10ebbor10]

It would fit into the idea we had before, were magic was some sort of background radiation resource, and the player could meddle with it.

[Blade Master Model 42]

magic was some sort of background radiation resource

This is sufficiently dwarfy, in my eyes.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Just mean to say that if the only requirements are material, then they're going to be very easy to mass-produce no matter how you try to balance them.  Example:  Once you get a steel industry going, it's pretty easy to produce a lot of steel weapons and armor, even Masterworks with a skilled smith.  The most time-consuming part of setting up your military is still training your soldiers, though.  It's a lot harder to train an axe lord than it is to equip him, unless you're trying to get artifact gear.  So, provided all the materials needed for a Golem are available on your map and you don't need to import them, then it stands to reason that as soon as the infrastructure was set up you'd be able to churn them out very rapidly, much more rapidly than training a militia, if it was purely a construction process.  If it was much easier to build a War Golem than train an Axe Lord, then it'd pretty much have to be weaker than that Axe Lord or there would be literally no point in training a military, which would render that whole aspect of the game more or less obsolete.  The general attitude here seems to be that a good Golem should be able to smash that Axe Lord into meat paste, which I agree with, but in that case you'd need to make it harder to get a Battle Golem than an Axe Lord for the same reason. 

First off, resources will be scarcer in DF 1.0. I'm pretty sure of that.
Second off, if resources are so cheap, why do you need so much of them in your suggestion?
Third off, I agree that there should be non-material costs/limitations, I just think your scheme overdid it.

As for the berserk thing and skill levels, maybe it is a stupid idea.  It's a suggestion, not a list of demands here. Just throwing it out there because I think it would be fun.  My solution would be to just have your dwarf churn out cheap worker golems to get his skill up with a couple axedwarves on standby to put them down if they flip.  As for them going crazy at all, as I said, have it be like tamed animals going feral.  Have a visual indication in the name, and when it starts to go screwy bring it in for a tuneup.

..."Tuneup" sounds wrong here, I'm not sure why.
Golems malfunctioning is virtually required on a system-wide level, but it shouldn't be expected for an average golem one would make. If you made a golem or three per month, you'd probably be cruising for a bruising courtesy of the golems, but the chance shouldn't be high with decent skill and no adverse conditions, unless you were making an unusually powerful golem.

I'm not trying to strawman anybody.  Can we at least agree that a fair cost versus benefit is completely a matter of opinion in this case?

No.
Replace "opinion" with "situation," though, and I agree.

One simple way to limit them would be to have the golemancer only be able to safely animate a set amount of golems at a time (or at least control them ), maybe say 2-3 tops. If you had him animate more the risk of him losing control over them would multiply and probably only be a good idea as a last resort defense against a siege (ie, animate a room full of golems, get the hell out of there and pull the lever to let them loose on the gobbos) ^^

It should very by skill level and golem power, but the idea is sound.

[Neonivek]

First off, resources will be scarcer in DF 1.0. I'm pretty sure of that

To an extent. I think the rare resources will become legitimately rare.

Mind you, I'd fully expect there to be the possibility for you to stumble onto a goldmine (litterally)

[GreatWyrmGold]

First off, resources will be scarcer in DF 1.0. I'm pretty sure of that

To an extent. I think the rare resources will become legitimately rare.

Mind you, I'd fully expect there to be the possibility for you to stumble onto a goldmine (litterally)

...Although it would be unlikely for that spot to also have abundant iron, coal, flux, etc, or to also have some useful terrain feature like a near-surface magma pipe or a nice enchantment.

[Boomboom]

I'm thinking that a golem should require blocks as a first material, and that any block is usable, like tetrahedrite blocks and such.  The limitations imposed by the selected material would apply, like melting points -- a dolomite golem could wade into magma, which might be handy.

I don't think that dwarven ethics would agree with sentient sacrifices, so I can't see that being a requirement.

I don't think golems could go insane, as they are insentient and soulless.  Can zombies go insane?  Nope, neither should golems, as they are constructs.  I think they should simply go inert if something should happen to the creator, and if the creator goes insane, than it could act out it's insanity through it's golem.

The tasks that a golem can perform should mimic the tasks assigned to the creator, so that if you want a mining golem, you first have to enable the mining skill in the creator, assign a mining task, and wait and see if the creator goes to do it, in which case the golem would do it too, so it would be like having two dwarves doing the work.  I don't think the golem should require tools though, it's bare fists should be sufficient.  The material of the golem would determine what kind of tasks it could perform, so that wooden golems might not be able to mine, for instance, but still haul and do other things.

Likewise, a soldier golem would require a creator to be drafted into a unit and sent to war.  The golem would follow the creator into combat and fight at his/her side, and if the creator falls in combat, the golem goes inert.  If the golem is felled, then the creator will experience bad thoughts, and may enrage to avenge his creation.

Inert golems could be stored in piles, and a different creator could then animate it -- this way golems could be traded between different users.  The process of animating a golem should be a very long process at first, as the skill level would be low, but as experience is gained, it could become almost instantaneous at legendary skill levels.  Multiple golems could be activated by a single creator, so that a mining job for instance could be a snap.

Golems could be created at a new workshop called a "Manufactory" where golems and perhaps other constructs -- such as a Frankenstein monster -- could be assembled and used.  Assembling a golem would also be a time consuming process, and may require several restarts as errors in production may occur.  Restarts would require new blocks, and the old block would be gone.  Errors will produce unhappy thoughts in golem assemblers, so care would have to be taken lest they tantrum -- and a creator with golems in a tantrum would be fearsome.

[Boomboom]

To add a little more, mining golems would at least have to be made of the same materials that picks are made of, and woodcutter golems would likewise need to be made of materials that axes are made of.  A golem creator could select from the golem stockpile which types of golems would be needed for which types of jobs are assigned, so the overseer would need to stock many different kinds of golems for whatever tasks are necessary, say a bunch of copper golems for mining and woodcutting. 

I don't think that golems would have the manual dexterity to fulfill workshop orders, but they would bring materials to the creator who was assigned to a workshop, and transport any finished products to their proper stockpiles. 

For war golems, strong materials would be good but not necessary, so the player would have to take care if a bunch of glass golems were shattered in combat, which would cause immense grief to the creator.

The golem skill would belong in the same category as architecture I think, as it doesn't really fit anywhere else. 

Golems would stand guard over their creator if he/she should fall asleep, and would automatically transport him/her to the hospital if the creator sustained any injuries or went unconscious.  This could pose a problem in a pitch battle if a creator were to be carried away by his five golems right when they are needed the most.

The golem's loyalty lies with the creator, so if a tantruming dwarf were to pick a fist fight with a creator, the golems would probably pulverise him to a pulp.  However, golems would not retaliate if they were the ones who were being picked on, though the creator might get upset and have bad thoughts if this were to occur.

An imprisoned creator would keep his/her golems that were active, and they would provide him/her with food and water as needed.  Any corporal punishment would be too risky if the creator had active golems, though this probably wouldn't stop a hammerer or such, and much fun would ensue.

Golems would be building destroyers, so they would knock down forbidden doors and such in order to reunite with a creator who may be on the other side of one.  Creators taken by a fey mood would have all of their items acquired by their golems for them, and they golems would even break forbidden doors to get at them, if need be.  If the creator goes insane, the golems would behave according to the particular insanity.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I'd like to bring up the idea of more than one golem type again.

Anyways, golems going "insane" is as old as Prague, the place of origin for the first golem (more or less)

[Boomboom]

Well, I did just describe a way to make many kinds of golems, unless you mean like animal ones or something?

Also, I don't think DF is limited to literary conventions of the past.

[Starver]

It needn't be "Insane" in a dwarfy way, of course.  A golem tasked to mine could continue to mine (outside of your control, which would be Fun!), a golem tasked to fight could continue to fight (more Fun!), a golem tasked to make a product could continue to make more of that product (and don't think that depriving it of the required materials is going to stop the Fun!, in fact it would probably start it) and of course a golem tasked to bring buckets of water (or metal buckets of magma?) would...  I'm sure... be equally Funny.

[hanni79]

Another way to make Golems rare could be the following :

Lets say they are half mechanical, half magic ( I'm not into the original Golem idea, it reminds me a lot too much of stone trolls or similar, I view Golems more like bit less powerful and more sentient as this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bg5SLBapMiI
First, you would have to build a Golem ( be it via mood, as a normal item, etc). Used materials set the Golems base values ( strength, agility, whatever fits).
Second, you need the three "Power-components" : Water, Magma, Soul. Water and Magma (not fuel, just needs to be added once) are the mechanical Power part and the soul makes the Golem sentient. In 0.34.11 the only possibility to get a Golem into Lava would be to put it into a minecart or cage and submerge it. As for the soul part .... not really sure how to achieve this, but maybe it could be a good possibility to get rid of ghosts

This simply would make Golem creation need extensive micromanagement, infrastructure and rare resources.

Some note on my line of thought : The Golems I suggest would pretty much be "Extra Dwarves", since they have a soul and therefore they couldn't be tasked directly, but would take jobs from the queue like everyone else. They should have "skill" according to their quality level and since they are highly specialized (when there's more than one type) the should be prioritized when the jobs are given out. That also means they do "Golem stuff" when not on a job, which will be most likely hanging out. But since thy have a soul they should have some preferences for funsies, so they don't just stand around all time.

[Gamerlord]

Read the top, then thought of Promethean: The Created. I can't help but wonder what it would like if golems in DF were like Prometheans.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Well, I did just describe a way to make many kinds of golems, unless you mean like animal ones or something?

Also, I don't think DF is limited to literary conventions of the past.

1. No, many ways to make golems.
2. Maybe not, but don't deny that DF is based heavily on fantasy literature, and that most works with golems include them going haywire.

Another way to make Golems rare could be the following :

Lets say they are half mechanical, half magic ( I'm not into the original Golem idea, it reminds me a lot too much of stone trolls or similar, I view Golems more like bit less powerful and more sentient as this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bg5SLBapMiI
First, you would have to build a Golem ( be it via mood, as a normal item, etc). Used materials set the Golems base values ( strength, agility, whatever fits).
Second, you need the three "Power-components" : Water, Magma, Soul. Water and Magma (not fuel, just needs to be added once) are the mechanical Power part and the soul makes the Golem sentient. In 0.34.11 the only possibility to get a Golem into Lava would be to put it into a minecart or cage and submerge it. As for the soul part .... not really sure how to achieve this, but maybe it could be a good possibility to get rid of ghosts

This simply would make Golem creation need extensive micromanagement, infrastructure and rare resources.

Some note on my line of thought : The Golems I suggest would pretty much be "Extra Dwarves", since they have a soul and therefore they couldn't be tasked directly, but would take jobs from the queue like everyone else. They should have "skill" according to their quality level and since they are highly specialized (when there's more than one type) the should be prioritized when the jobs are given out. That also means they do "Golem stuff" when not on a job, which will be most likely hanging out. But since thy have a soul they should have some preferences for funsies, so they don't just stand around all time.

The general idea is good, but I'm not sure about the water and magma bit.

Maybe a useful golem could need a different trinity: Substance, Strength, and Soul.
Substance is what makes up the golem, the physical form. Say, a statue or suit of armor.
Strength is what lets the golem move. It might be magic or mechanical.
Soul is what lets the golem live, and would probably be the biggest difference between golem-making traditions.

[Owlbread]

I don't think golems should have to go haywire, just as a possibility.