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Author Topic: The ancient art of Golem making.  (Read 9082 times)

10ebbor10

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Re: The ancient art of Golem making.
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2012, 03:14:04 pm »

I'd rather see golems as a necromancer's dedicated building destroyers
We could pretend they are masterwork statues with a part of The Secrets of Life and Death inscribed on their heads
Nah, not everything needs to be a necromancers. That'll only give problems when more wizard types are implemented.

Necromancers could try to necro large animals, or do unethical experiments (mutations)
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: The ancient art of Golem making.
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2012, 08:17:59 pm »

My suggested implementation:

Step 0: No golems: The default state is that you can't make golems.

Step 1: Artifact golem: "golem" is one of the types of things that can come out of a strange mood. The golem will (usually) be mysterious, and whether this becomes a good thing or a bad thing will depend on various factors, such as the type of mood, the source of the inspiration, the mythological connotations of the materials used, and what you do with the golem. Depending on the nature of the golem and the process of its creation, the dwarf who made it may be able to just go ahead and make more (Step 2). Maybe not, though; don't count on it. If she doesn't have that ability, you will first have to figure out if it's even possible to just make more; to do this, you have some skilled dwarves examine the golem, and try to figure it out. Most of the time, they won't, but sometimes, you'll go to Step 3.

Step 2: Urist Golem-Maker: If your formerly-moody dwarf can make more golems, then she can just do that, with the exact process and materials procedurally generated based on various factors, such as the type of mood, the inspiration, ... you get the picture. Generally, you will need whatever went into the first golem, although some parts may be superfluous, and some parts may have been divinely provided and need to be replaced with rare/expensive/bizarre substitutes in the production recipe. Urist may or may not be able to train more golem-makers. If she can, you can go to Step 3.

Step 3: GolemMurdered: Once Urist trains a certain number of golem-makers, it will just sort of be assumed that dwarves in her fort can become golem-makers. Generally, if you survive long enough, you will be able to progress to Step 4.

Step 4: Golem-making Civ: Once a site has enough aggregate golem-making training, the skill can start spreading into the general skills of its entity.

Step 5+: ???: I don't feel like going further right now.

Sometimes, your civ will start out on a step higher than zero. Also, most of the time you won't get a golem at all, even in a ten-year fort, and even when you do get a golem, it's still rather likely (P>0.5) that you won't be able to make more.
Step 5: Golems are common.
Step 6: Golems are overexploited.
Step 7: Golems rebel.
Step 8: Dwarves scorch the skies.
Step 9: The golems wonder how this was supposed to stop them.
On a serious note, I don't think that golems should be so much "rare and powerful" as "uncommon, typically inefficient, and requires care."

So my turn now.
The idea that formed in my mind is similar to the original myth of Jewish Golems.

The Golems were supposedly crafted by a Rabbi, from clay for the most part (Garden of Eden, any one?). According to some sources what gave the Golem life was an amulet with engraved name, or some such thing. The Golem would perform tasks ordered by it's creator, but it would also grow in size and power over time. The creator of the golem is able to destroy it easilly, if he does so in time, but if he fails and Golem becomes too powerfull to control... a lot of FUN happens.

I think that a Golem should be a creation of a moody dwarf. It's a good idea to make it require a masterwork statue of specified material. What I think would add to the FUN would be if the Golem maker required a living being to be sacrificed to give Golem its life. It should most certainly be a dwarf, in some cases even the creator dwarfself. Said Golem would behave like an animal that is aiding it's creator in performing any duties, with high efficiency, and also attacks any enemies in sight. But if the creator dies, have sacrificed dwarfself to make the Golem, or fails to destroy his creation in time, the Golem will become a rampaging Collosus. Not only does it give a backstory of other Collosi rampaging out there, but is possibly a source of a lot of FUN!
It's a simple feature as well, and simplicity is a good thing.

"-Oh I don't need millitary, I have this Golem that will take care of this invasion of pesky goblins! Hey, where is my Golem? Golem where are you god da*Collosus have smashed McCarpenters skull in, bruising the brain!* MN NO! Golem NO! Bad Golem NO!."

As too the idea that golems made of lower quality materials should be able to do fewer tasks is a very bad idea. Instead of making a wooden mediocre golem unable to dig and only haul items, he should still be able to do all the tasks, except with lower efficiency. Putting such limitations is just unnecessary, and not fun.
So...Golems are extremely rare and will inevitably turn? For no good reason? No thanks...
The note about golems of various materials merely being bad at certain tasks makes sense, as long as you consider the implications of said material. For instance, a wood golem wouldn't be able to forge because it's flammable, and a glass golem would be too fragile to be good at combat.

I'd rather see golems as a necromancer's dedicated building destroyers
We could pretend they are masterwork statues with a part of The Secrets of Life and Death inscribed on their heads
Nah, not everything needs to be a necromancers. That'll only give problems when more wizard types are implemented.
Necromancers could try to necro large animals, or do unethical experiments (mutations)
Agreed. On a related note, more normal animals should be at least level-1 building destroyers.
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Radiant_Phoenix

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Re: The ancient art of Golem making.
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2012, 09:20:43 pm »

Step 5: Golems are common.
Step 6: Golems are overexploited.
Step 7: Golems rebel.
Step 8: Dwarves scorch the skies.
Step 9: The golems wonder how this was supposed to stop them.
On a serious note, I don't think that golems should be so much "rare and powerful" as "uncommon, typically inefficient, and requires care."
Whether a golem generated by a mood is powerful, useful-but-inefficient, or basically useless (and in what capacities) would be procedurally generated based on the nature of the mood, maker, materials, etc., with golems of intermediate utility and low danger being the most common.

Whether a golem made outside of a mood is powerful or w/e should be a function of the mood-golem and the skill of the maker; the danger level would be the same as that of the mood-golem, but the most dangerous mood-golems generally wouldn't be something you could make more of.
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: The ancient art of Golem making.
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2012, 09:57:00 pm »

Step 5: Golems are common.
Step 6: Golems are overexploited.
Step 7: Golems rebel.
Step 8: Dwarves scorch the skies.
Step 9: The golems wonder how this was supposed to stop them.
On a serious note, I don't think that golems should be so much "rare and powerful" as "uncommon, typically inefficient, and requires care."
Whether a golem generated by a mood is powerful, useful-but-inefficient, or basically useless (and in what capacities) would be procedurally generated based on the nature of the mood, maker, materials, etc., with golems of intermediate utility and low danger being the most common.
Sounds okay. Moods should A. occur in worldgen to create the possibility of starting off with golem knowledge and B. just let one invent golems. I think B was covered by you, though.

Quote
Whether a golem made outside of a mood is powerful or w/e should be a function of the mood-golem and the skill of the maker; the danger level would be the same as that of the mood-golem, but the most dangerous mood-golems generally wouldn't be something you could make more of.
I'm not sure about "could." "Would" seems more appropriate.
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Zavvnao

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Re: The ancient art of Golem making.
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2012, 08:10:48 am »

This seems interesting :3 would you name them, or could they have randomly generated names?

Maybe Hebrew-sounding ones since it ties into that mythology?
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Starver

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Re: The ancient art of Golem making.
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2012, 09:58:54 am »

I'll seemingly repeat some of what some people said, to put down my vision of this issue...

Materials: clay (perhaps a number of units) and some paper or parchment or something (from wood or pre-tanned skin, but we can take advantage of the book-making skills that will develop.

Person: Someone with a high belief in their own god.  I don't know of any extant skills, normally available that would apply, but "mystic" or "priest"-class skills would be eminently useful in addition.

Workshop: Kiln, for body, and whatever you'd use for the paper and getting some 'holy mark' marked upon the paper.  If there's a "spiritual adviser" noble place going for an actual priest-type person then their table and chair in their office would probably suffice, or borrow the Bookmaker's one. ;)

Capability: Well, I think the individual who is otherwise capable of the task needs to learn that it's possible.  Discovered from a book, perhaps or maybe (in future Fortress development) taken a sabbatical at an off-site location where the knowledge needed might have been learnt.

The process: Construct the body.  Can be a "clay statue" job that anybody can create for mundane purposes, but must be made by the actual individual who will imbue it with its particular brand of anima, and probably of a certain minimum quality level.  Likewise the slip of paper/etc which is the 'chem' needs to be skilfully produced, so I foresee plenty of time writing more mundane things (perhaps sermons on the evil of Playing God? ;)) as a background, as well as contributing to the pottery industry.  Build the 'statue' as a building and then (with the chem equipped), interact with the statue-building-thing in some suitable way.  (I'm now getting visions of "The Sims"-like jobs of clicking on the statue and having "Admire" and "Imbue with life" options, amongst any others. ;))  One golem.

And, I think, it should be one golem.  Something about the chem-writing takes a lot out of our golem-maker, perhaps.  Maybe suppresses the chem-writing skills (can be a modified skill-check, with a side-counter making it a degraded skill each and every time) so that it's double the effort to make the next, and the next and the next, meaning failure.

Failure modes: Well, I was thinking as how the mood of the creator should be correct.  Not too ecstatic, not too unhappy.  This could just mean failure of animation.  OTOH, if the creator's chem-writing was done while in an overly cheery mood, might the golem be more procrastinative?  If written while in a bad mood could it perhaps give chances for a more impulsive creation (and impulsiveness is never good in a golem, I imagine).


How to use the golem: Initially, I can see it as being a "pet" (in all but name, but the code could be shared) of its creator, following him around.  But reassignable.  The creator can give the golem to another individual, and the other individual can give the golem back to its creator (or the creator can reclaim it, maybe).  Whoever it is 'pet' to, it follows and (initially) tries to assist in the task of the current 'owner'.  Crafts get made quicker, etc.  If assigned to a miner/axe-dwarf/soldier, the golem needs to be equipped with a pick/axe/weapons to be effective and help out (although perhaps in the military it might be Ok on its own, with great big fists made of hard stuff, but see below), and should other crafts start to require tools then those also might need duplication, although workshop work might well do without that restriction (an extra pair of hands at the same bench, to speed things up, rather than a second worker at a parallel bench).

Maybe there's a skill-improvement (reset upon reassigning between owners?) which means that a 'raw' golem would actually aid you little (maybe slow you down) in a given job, but eventually it actually becomes quite proficient.  Maybe the pet-type interaction should allow a worker to leave a golem at a post to continue the job (once beyond, say, "Proficient" in the task it currently has skills in), but beware problems with slovenly or... 'distracted' golems, as affected by core quality and the mood of the creator (if applicable).  The former could slow or cease the intended work, the latter might claim more and more resources (even forbidden ones?) and keep on creating whatever object it had originally been tasked to create.  Or you might lose the ability to remove "Mister Pump" from pumping, or "Mister Digger" from digging (even through undesignated ground-tiles).  Maybe beyond the wit of the creator, even, to reclaim the golem and remove it from the job it was doing.  (Or the threat is that the death of the creator means there is no-one left who can control it, if there is no non-creator owner on the scene either.  But even if there is he cannot actually reassign the golem to any other person!)


Durability: No fatigue, but perhaps wear might exist.  Can only be repaired by the creator, if so.  Damage, however...  It's a pottery construct (or whatever material, but I'm keeping on with the idea as already written) and smashable.  At least an arm can be broken off in combat/adverse conditions.  Would probably survive submersion in magma or water.  Perhaps would absorb heat from the magma so that contact with water shortly afterwards causes damage (somewhere between mild cracking all the way to destructive splintering).  Perhaps acts like a hot creature anyway, so that contact with flammable materials (perhaps as part of its current job) is problematic.



Well, I'm waffling on, so I'll leave it there, but I've other thoughts on the issue.  Especially on how they might go rogue.  And that it might be possible to get a golem trained in making golems (after aiding the creator with both writing tasks and pottery ones) and do so more effectively than the original creator might, but more risk of undue independence arising, meaning Golem Fortress might well be nigh for your embark site. ;)
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Liamar

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Re: The ancient art of Golem making.
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2012, 11:13:32 am »


So...Golems are extremely rare and will inevitably turn? For no good reason? No thanks...
The note about golems of various materials merely being bad at certain tasks makes sense, as long as you consider the implications of said material. For instance, a wood golem wouldn't be able to forge because it's flammable, and a glass golem would be too fragile to be good at combat.



Nope and nope.
Golems turn for very good reasons most often countermeasurable by the player in order to produce FUN.
And a wooden golem not being able to forge beacuse it's flammable makes no sense in the least... humans and dwarves aren't exactly fire resistant and they have no problem with that.
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Owlbread

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Re: The ancient art of Golem making.
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2012, 12:19:47 pm »

I think this all depends on just how common magic will be in the DF worlds of the future. If magic is very common I don't see why Golems couldn't be common if the resources are available for them. I'd love to have golem guardians for my fortress.

I do like the idea of bronze colossi being golems though. At the moment they're a bit odd considering they're just gigantic bronze living statues that have inexplicable shrines of an indeterminate origin. Why are they always so violent? What drives them? What put them there?

According to the Jewish religion, originally Adam was a golem made out of mud. He was then modified and transformed into a man. People who were very close to god in some way or particularly holy/powerful or whatever could create golems from mud (or dust) like god did, but they would never be as good as god's original creation. In other words, they could never make a person.

I think it would be great if an extremely powerful priest or wizard or similar (we're talking Lord Voldemort or Sauron levels of power here) could infuse a golem with the soul of anyone he chooses. That way your civilisation's most legendary king or warrior or craftsman could live on as a golem, immune to the passage of time and ready to carry on his work as a being of magic and matter. Unfortunately, they would be slaves to their creator. This isn't always terrible though; if your fortress has a wizard or priest or whatever of the power required, then your magician could rule the kingdom with the help of ancient, long-dead leaders or legendary dwarves. Or at least help your current king to rule it. Perhaps there is an object or piece of knowledge that someone must possess in order to control the golem - such as the meaning of the word inscribed upon it or something. Maybe it is written in a procedurally generated language that only a select few know.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 12:55:31 pm by Owlbread »
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: The ancient art of Golem making.
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2012, 06:53:16 pm »


So...Golems are extremely rare and will inevitably turn? For no good reason? No thanks...
The note about golems of various materials merely being bad at certain tasks makes sense, as long as you consider the implications of said material. For instance, a wood golem wouldn't be able to forge because it's flammable, and a glass golem would be too fragile to be good at combat.
Nope and nope.
Golems turn for very good reasons most often countermeasurable by the player in order to produce FUN.
And a wooden golem not being able to forge beacuse it's flammable makes no sense in the least... humans and dwarves aren't exactly fire resistant and they have no problem with that.
Golems should be able to turn, but there should be a reason past "They're golems."
And wood is much more flammable than people, who are smart enough to not do things an unthinking golem might. Besides, it was an example I pulled from the posterior region of my alimentary canal about logical weaknesses.

I think this all depends on just how common magic will be in the DF worlds of the future. If magic is very common I don't see why Golems couldn't be common if the resources are available for them. I'd love to have golem guardians for my fortress.
Probably varies by world.

Quote
I do like the idea of bronze colossi being golems though. At the moment they're a bit odd considering they're just gigantic bronze living statues that have inexplicable shrines of an indeterminate origin. Why are they always so violent? What drives them? What put them there?
Obviously.

Quote
According to the Jewish religion, originally Adam was a golem made out of mud. He was then modified and transformed into a man. People who were very close to god in some way or particularly holy/powerful or whatever could create golems from mud (or dust) like god did, but they would never be as good as god's original creation. In other words, they could never make a person.

I think it would be great if an extremely powerful priest or wizard or similar (we're talking Lord Voldemort or Sauron levels of power here) could infuse a golem with the soul of anyone he chooses. That way your civilisation's most legendary king or warrior or craftsman could live on as a golem, immune to the passage of time and ready to carry on his work as a being of magic and matter. Unfortunately, they would be slaves to their creator. This isn't always terrible though; if your fortress has a wizard or priest or whatever of the power required, then your magician could rule the kingdom with the help of ancient, long-dead leaders or legendary dwarves. Or at least help your current king to rule it. Perhaps there is an object or piece of knowledge that someone must possess in order to control the golem - such as the meaning of the word inscribed upon it or something. Maybe it is written in a procedurally generated language that only a select few know.
This shouldn't be the only way golems are made, and the golemmaker should be able to set the golems free, but yep, sounds good.
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Owlbread

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Re: The ancient art of Golem making.
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2012, 10:02:55 pm »

Indeed, and I never said that it should be the only way to make a golem, I just thought it could be a cool use for the golem. It would also be interesting to think of a way to set golems free. If we can figure out how they are made and the nature of their enslavement, then we could work out a way to set them free.
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Revanchist

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Re: The ancient art of Golem making.
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2012, 11:49:38 pm »

Does anyone think that franken-golems would be good? As in, is there a rule stating the golem needs to be dwarf shaped? What about combat tenticles in exchange for arms? Obviously though, you couldn't have too many appendages or it becomes a game-breaker.

I think, though, that dwarfs exclusively should be able to (not nescessarily be smart about) craft(ing) golems. Humans don't seem tech-savvy enough in DF, while elves are... elves.
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10ebbor10

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Re: The ancient art of Golem making.
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2012, 11:12:08 am »

Does anyone think that franken-golems would be good? As in, is there a rule stating the golem needs to be dwarf shaped? What about combat tenticles in exchange for arms? Obviously though, you couldn't have too many appendages or it becomes a game-breaker.

I think, though, that dwarfs exclusively should be able to (not nescessarily be smart about) craft(ing) golems. Humans don't seem tech-savvy enough in DF, while elves are... elves.
Actually, humans seem more likely users of golems than dwarves. As stated  before, a golem is not a mechanical construct, but a magically empowered statue. Dwarves don't seem like obvious magic users*, but some humans often are. Elves just awaken the trees when they need a good siege force.

*driven by industry, not by magic
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Owlbread

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Re: The ancient art of Golem making.
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2012, 11:16:49 am »

Does anyone think that franken-golems would be good? As in, is there a rule stating the golem needs to be dwarf shaped? What about combat tenticles in exchange for arms? Obviously though, you couldn't have too many appendages or it becomes a game-breaker.

I think, though, that dwarfs exclusively should be able to (not nescessarily be smart about) craft(ing) golems. Humans don't seem tech-savvy enough in DF, while elves are... elves.
Actually, humans seem more likely users of golems than dwarves. As stated  before, a golem is not a mechanical construct, but a magically empowered statue. Dwarves don't seem like obvious magic users*, but some humans often are. Elves just awaken the trees when they need a good siege force.

*driven by industry, not by magic

But is it possible that golem making could be one instance of the industrial world meeting the magical world? Golems fit quite nicely in my head with Dwarves because of the fact that you craft golems, either from statues or something else. Something like making a magical robot or transmuting ore seem like very Dwarven spells to me.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 11:20:10 am by Owlbread »
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10ebbor10

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Re: The ancient art of Golem making.
« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2012, 01:03:00 pm »

A golem is just a solid statue turned alive, nothing special or mechanical about it. If dwarves were to mess with magical fields, I'd rather have it as something optionall then as commonplace. So dwarves might be building golems(there's nothing wrong with it), but I don't like golems running around the place. Magic should be rare and spectacular, not commonplace.
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Owlbread

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Re: The ancient art of Golem making.
« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2012, 01:08:49 pm »

A golem is just a solid statue turned alive, nothing special or mechanical about it. If dwarves were to mess with magical fields, I'd rather have it as something optionall then as commonplace. So dwarves might be building golems(there's nothing wrong with it), but I don't like golems running around the place. Magic should be rare and spectacular, not commonplace.

That's a completely different matter. We're talking about the kinds of magic common to Dwarves, not the kinds of magic common to the world in general. Basically everybody here has said that they want golems to be rare and difficult to make, so you won't have golems running around often.
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