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[darkrider2]

Now we're getting into Buddhist philosophy about the nature of the ego.

B12 derails are like a box of chocolate. You never know what you get next.

More like a box of rabid squirrels.

[Leatra]

I totally agree with the mask idea. We all wear a lot of masks. The mask you wear when meeting with your boss, the mask you wear when meeting with your friends, the mask you wear when meeting with opposite sex (or same sex, for that matter). Some people even wear masks when they are alone.

This mask thing works a lot easier online. You can act like you are totally someone else and everyone will believe you because they don't even see you to begin with. You may be thinking "why people should do that, other than trolls?" Well, I knew a guy in a different forum, where was I a moderator (no big deal, 15 users active). The lies he told us, oh man... I guess he just wanted to be popular and respected. Like a year after he was in the forum, his cousin joined the forum. Strangely enough, his cousin was typing exactly like him, with the same mistakes and stuff like that. Some time later, he told us his cousin died in a gunfight (wtf?). Months after he revealed that his cousin never existed and it was him with two different accounts. We decided to ban him from the forum. After he bombarded us with apologies, we let him back in. Anyway...

Sometimes people love acting like someone they are not. It's most common in online dating services. Though, if you are hoping to get laid with the help of online dating something must be wrong with you already anyway.

And sometimes, people completely throw off their mask when online. They reveal their sexual choices, religious choices, etc only when they are online. They share things they would never share with people they see. They look for advices online without asking for advice from their best friend. I did that too. It's like you throw off your mask but stand on the not visible side of a one-way mirror. You can easily back off from that windows without anyone noticing or caring but you can't do that in real life so you have to be more careful. Also, you can talk to people who you meet in real life more comfortably in the internet. That's a whole another thing.

[GlyphGryph]

Sometimes people love acting like someone they are not. It's most common in online dating services. Though, if you are hoping to get laid with the help of online dating something must be wrong with you already anyway

Hey now, there's nothing wrong with doing what works most successfully/most efficiently.

I, for one, am definitely my masks. There's stuff underneath, but it would be hilariously inaccurate to call that me. It's not a whole person, that's for sure. And there's no real appeal to partial people, socially or personally. Like a painting with a the superficial elements (like paint) stripped away, one can certainly examine the material, shape, and size of the canvas, but it's unlikely you'll find much of interest in deciphering the likely effect of the painting.

[kaijyuu]

Wonder if I should relate my experience as a G.I.R.L.

Ah, my stupid teenage years...

[Leatra]

Sometimes people love acting like someone they are not. It's most common in online dating services. Though, if you are hoping to get laid with the help of online dating something must be wrong with you already anyway

Hey now, there's nothing wrong with doing what works most successfully/most efficiently.

Well, I only used online dating services once to fool a friend into thinking that he is meeting a hot girl so I wouldn't know

We all had uncountable stories of foolishness in teenager years. I wish I could go back in time and slap past me so hard it leaves a mark on future me.

[DJ]

To sort of rerail the thread, what exactly is nice, and what is a jerk? By my personal definition, it's about the level of concern for needs and wants of others vs the needs and wants of oneself. Nice guys would be those that consider others more than your average guy, and the jerks would be those that consider them less than normal.

When group resources are distributed, the nice guy will always get less than others because he'll easily give in to their requests. A jerk will get more, because he'll push it until the others give in. Of course, there's being too much of a jerk, which can get you cast out of the group, so there's a certain optimum degree of jerkiness that maximizes one's share of the resources. Now, as men are valued mostly for their utility (ie how well they can provide for their women and children), it's only natural that women will prefer guys that are just big enough of a jerk, and shun the nice guys.

[scriver]

Wonder if I should relate my experience as a G.I.R.L.

Ah, my stupid teenage years...

Yes. Must do tell us.

[GlyphGryph]

You manage to conflate a few unrelated concepts there in your ideas of "nice guy" and "jerk".

In my experience, "nice guys" (in the way the term is usually used) don't give a shit about the wants and needs of others, only in avoiding conflict and ego-gratification. Essentially... nice guys are risk- and conflict-averse. Assholes are those who are willing to take risks even if they think the potential fallout might fall on others or it might cause conflict.

Kind people care about the wants and needs of others, but you don't need to be nice to be kind, and being nice doesn't mean you're kind.

A kind-but-firm person is not nice (even though he is concerned for others, sometimes to their own detriment). Drug enablers tend to be nice... but I certainly wouldn't call them kind.

[DJ]

And this is why I think we should work on definition of nice and jerk before discussing why women don't like nice guy. Because in my book a confrontational guy that doesn't work against the interests of others for his own advantage isn't a jerk, he's just hot-blooded.

[kaijyuu]

To sort of rerail the thread, what exactly is nice, and what is a jerk? By my personal definition, it's about the level of concern for needs and wants of others vs the needs and wants of oneself. Nice guys would be those that consider others more than your average guy, and the jerks would be those that consider them less than normal.

When group resources are distributed, the nice guy will always get less than others because he'll easily give in to their requests. A jerk will get more, because he'll push it until the others give in. Of course, there's being too much of a jerk, which can get you cast out of the group, so there's a certain optimum degree of jerkiness that maximizes one's share of the resources. Now, as men are valued mostly for their utility (ie how well they can provide for their women and children), it's only natural that women will prefer guys that are just big enough of a jerk, and shun the nice guys.

Men being breadwinners is an entirely new phenomenon. You can't even make an evolutionary psychology argument here, since back in Ye Olde Days men and women BOTH worked, and worked a lot. Women started becoming house decorations around the time of the industrial revolution, and even then only for the middle class.


There are some mutually beneficial social dynamics arguments you could make (like protector and protectee), but I don't think those really fall along gender lines all that much. That has infinitely more to do with simple personality compatibility.

Wonder if I should relate my experience as a G.I.R.L.

Ah, my stupid teenage years...

Yes. Must do tell us.

Alright, sure Behold the mask I wore for having different parts between my legs:

When I was around 14, someone asked me if I was a guy or a girl in real life. I joked and implied was a girl. They believed me. And thus, I kept doing that, as a joke. And got a lot of new attention. Eventually it wasn't a joke anymore, but just me fishing for attention. I never outright lied to anyone, but did twist the truth a hell of a lot. Eventually (as in, about a year later) I fessed up and no one cared one way or the other.

I'm not really ashamed about the experience. Honestly, the personality I had on display then is a hell of a lot closer to my personality now than my "real" one was back then. I learned a lot about who I am and who I want to be. I identify as a man, so it's not like I discovered my hidden transsexuality or anything, but I did discover I fit closer with many female stereotypes than male ones.

I look back at it with embarrassment, but not really regret. My biggest sin was being manipulative. I lied to get something. I'm not proud of that. But I do wonder... Did I become the mask I wore, or did the mask I thought I was wearing show a deeper side of me than I knew?

* kaijyuu shrugs

[DJ]

It's not exactly safe to go out and forage if you're 7-8 months along and can't run very well. And AFAIK women need a couple of days to recuperate after birth before they can do any strenuous physical activity. And I reckon a nursing woman needs a lot of protein in her diet, which would primarily come from meat, ie hunting which was a male job.

[kaijyuu]

How much is cultural and how much is evolutionary?

I'm not very well versed on ancient civilizations but I do remember that there were a few in which women were warriors and hunters and such as well. Hell, Agriculture is "new" on an evolutionary timescale, so I don't quite buy the "men = hunters, women = farmers/housemakers" thing either.

[DJ]

I think evolution would favour groups where men take on risky tasks, because from a group survival viewpoint men are a lot more expendable than women. I imagine women would still be doing a fair bit of small game hunting, but you need big game to avoid rabbit starvation.

[miauw62]

We all had uncountable stories of foolishness in teenager years. I wish I could go back in time and slap past me so hard it leaves a mark on future me.

But won't that mean that past you wont do that foolish stuff and thus you will never go back in time to slap him as there is no reason for it?

[GlyphGryph]

People here, at least in some places, thought I was a girl for a while. I enjoyed it, but not really so much for the attention. But rather because, so long as I was being treated such and acting as such, I was. It was an enjoyable mask to wear - but it wasn't a deception. I'm no more a guy than I am a girl - I'm simple words on a computer screen, a digital avatar, a genderless body powered by the processes of an outside mind.

If saying I'm a girl is a "lie", then so is saying I'm a "guy" - the term is meaningless in context except to describe potential avenues of likely shared experience, and mine has been different enough from the standard for either sex that it's meaningless even then. It's no more a lie than the fact that my avatar on the forum is not the real-life face of my user. If a girl is what I am treated like and act like and am referred to as, then a girl is what I am... within the digital realm, anyway.

Perhaps others would disagree though - see me as a liar. I don't really know or care. The truth of such matters is never more than skin dip even in real life, in places without physical bodies I don't think there can be a truth.

And this is why I think we should work on definition of nice and jerk before discussing why women don't like nice guy. Because in my book a confrontational guy that doesn't work against the interests of others for his own advantage isn't a jerk, he's just hot-blooded.

Exactly. These aren't the only too options. If he's confrontational, though, even working in the interests of others, I certainly wouldn't call him "nice" - good, maybe. He's a good guy. But he's not "nice".