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Author Topic: "Why don't women like nice guys?"  (Read 44870 times)

DJ

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Re: "Why don't women like nice guys?"
« Reply #105 on: November 13, 2012, 10:40:22 am »

What about people that are really interested in a romantic relationship?
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Taniec

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Re: "Why don't women like nice guys?"
« Reply #106 on: November 13, 2012, 11:25:31 am »

What about people that are really interested in a romantic relationship?

Half will have a really happy, enjoyable life with their spouse/live in significant other.

The other half will drink, snort, or seek therapy post divorce. Half of that half will have various cash and prizes distributed to their accounts.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 11:27:18 am by Taniec »
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GlyphGryph

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Re: "Why don't women like nice guys?"
« Reply #107 on: November 13, 2012, 12:16:50 pm »

LordBucket,

Despite your use of heavily loaded and woefully inaccurate language... yes, I've seen the behaviours you espouse in real life and, without exception, it consistantly forms the core of the worst relationships I've ever seen, leaving both parties miserable.

It turns out, no one wants to be an object, and no one forms meaningful relationships with objects.

You see, you're taking one of the fundamental relationship interactions - initiate->respond - and then taking it to it's most extreme and ludicrous position - act->receive. Most people might want to dally in this occasionally, but almost no one wants to live it. As Neonivek said, it's fundamentally unbalanced. One does not have a meaningful, long term relationship with a door or canvas. The actor will grow board, or the receiver will grow resentful, or both. You can not dance with a canvas, or be surprised by a canvas. Imagine for a minute the beginning of a house of cards - two cards acting on each. This can form the basis of an incredible structure, but if one card merely receives, there is no stability. The structure will collapse into disarray. So too in life.

Consider, instead, if you must foolishly follow such a black and white view of relationships, the more common variant of initiate->respond we can call act->evade. Rather than the river wearing down the stone to nothingness, never noticing or caring as the stone is destroyed, or the sculptor accomplishing his goals with a stone block and discarding it to move on to the next piece, imagine instead the wolf and the deer - the hunter and the hunted. Or, in a less predatory model, the gardener and the garden. The responder, here, is not passive - they actively influence the relationship. The actor initiates the relationship and determines the shape, but the other party responds - there will be surprises, the responder will adept, and success requires commitment and a willingness to overcome obstacles in pursuit of the end.

Now here you can have a healthy relationship (this doesn't mean you /will/, but you can). Both parties can enjoy the hunt, and the natural creative energies of the garden can be harnessed into a pleasing shape by the active gardener without suppressing the garden - a good gardener uses the garden rather than exerting their will on it, and a good hunter (in a non-lethal hunt) is always sure to avoid the certainty of permanent victory and permanent defeat. Think to your own life - surely you have encountered relationships that are more accurately described by this model. There is an initiator and responder, but both are actors. There is a give and take - unlike with the artist and a canvas, there is an inherent uncertainty and dynamism that a relationship needs to thrive.

This isn't the ONLY sort of relationship dynamic that can work. Hunts tend to end, and gardens become routine. Still staying within the initiator-responder framework, we have the concept of act -> resist. Here is an element you will see in all the strongest relationships. There is an initiator, but they are not alone in acting at all (like in the actor->receiver paradigm), nor is the relationship one way (like in the actor->evader paradigm). The responder, here, acts on them in turn. For an example of this in real life, watch some couple dancing - the dance comes from the responding partner /resisting/ the initiator in the appropriate manner and ways. Those who simply receive are doomed to fail, and this isn't the sort of dance for those who evade. Or take a friendly game of any sort - and relationships could easily be described as games. In chess, white initiates, but it would be foolish to say that black receives. As in volleyball, a "good game" is not one where the other actor acquiesces to your attempts, but where they actively resist them. Of course, in a relationship, unlike in a competition, the goal is not to "win" - simply to enjoy the dynamic for as long as possible. Like a pickup basketball game, victory, or at least permanent victory, is actually anthetical to success.

Some people forget this, of course - relationships built around competition happen. But surely you must agree that they /exist/ - and thus this model is an accurate descriptor.

But in truth? Most healthy relationships mix all these dynamics and more, and while one party always needs to initiate, and some parties may naturally initiate more, exclusivity in these dynamics is a detriment that leads to instability.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 12:38:54 pm by GlyphGryph »
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scriver

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Re: "Why don't women like nice guys?"
« Reply #108 on: November 13, 2012, 12:46:20 pm »

I really like how in all but one of LordBucket's metaphores, the man-equivalent is still human but the woman is an object. Really tells us more about what he thinks than any of his empty, fauxlosophic posts could ever do.
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pisskop

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Re: "Why don't women like nice guys?"
« Reply #109 on: November 13, 2012, 01:11:08 pm »

ptw.  Can't comment without reading, and I hardly have time now...
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Toady One

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Re: "Why don't women like nice guys?"
« Reply #110 on: November 13, 2012, 01:28:04 pm »

(removed an off-topic situation)
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kaijyuu

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Re: "Why don't women like nice guys?"
« Reply #111 on: November 13, 2012, 03:27:19 pm »

I don't know, "They're an asshole." still seems like it's a much easier (not to mention universal) answer to me. Once you accept that every person you encounter in life is, just like yourself, an undeniable asshole with their own faults and flaws they've yet to work on, there's no need to dwell over what's "nice", what's "mean", who was in the wrong...you simply accept the fact that no one is perfect, and that we all have some quality (or set of qualities) that make us an asshole in some way, then continue on with your existence.
I like to think myself as "not an asshole"  :'( Maybe that's proof of me being one.

People are flawed, but their flaws aren't always in the malice, hate, or apathy departments, which would be what I'd require to qualify someone as an "asshole."


Anyway yes, I agree with you, at least essentially. When we snip at someone in frustration, we justify it by saying we had a bad day (or something similar). And we might just be right. However, we rarely assume that when someone snips at us, that they had a bad day or something; they're just an asshole.

In the context of relationships, it's very easy as an outside observer to only see people's bad parts, especially if it's a couple that snips at each other in public.
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Itnetlolor

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Re: "Why don't women like nice guys?"
« Reply #112 on: November 13, 2012, 03:54:24 pm »

I've had trouble with this topic for a good portion of my life (shameless self-promotion of having been a "nice guy" in the past). Got a ton of crap over my life for being one, even though I was clueless of being one (took countless failures for me to realize, since nobody had the decency to call me out on it. I was a "Goody 'Two Shoes'", and a bit of a bleeding heart.), out of discovery/realization, I gave up on pursuits until I can re-realize my true self (coming to the conclusion that I'm a gentleman asshole; nice when I'm being a genuinely decent person to everyone, but had my moments of using my 'niceness' at moments to beat people over the head as a form of self-righteousness (where I realized as nice as I was, I was an asshole, cue mental paradoxes until I resolved them to a logical extent); nowadays, my asshole behavior is aimed more at being assertive, and a 'fun asshole' to prankster non-sequiter levels), and have intent to return to the field to scope out a mate again (e.g. playing the dating game again; this time, with a better head for it; after finding my mental/spiritual equilibrium.).

Seeing this topic come up, and started by a woman, no less (especially Vector), caught my attention. I don't know exactly what I can contribute to this thread, but I do find much of the discussion kinda interesting overall. So far, this is the most civil discussion of this topic I have seen since... ever. Usually whenever I brought up the topic to discuss it at these levels, it fell apart almost instantly, and I get marked as an outcast or get exiled out of social circles or forums. It's like the equivalent of mentioning politics. Glad to see this topic actually being informative and showing all different angles of the situation, instead of being lame common advice after lame common advice, and a bunch of whiny conclusions that women are sluts, and there are no good people left in the world and other self-righteous crap like that. I think this is the first time in eons since I've actually seen good output come from this topic. All the stuff mentioned so far is the kind of stuff I've been demanding to result from such a discussion for ages (tangible opinions and information I can actually use to work with; leading to actually useful, and practical, advice, for once).

Hat's off to you guys for keeping it mostly civil, so far. As an ex-"nice guy" (that gave up ages ago), this is actually rather reassuring to witness/read through. This is what I've been wanting to see develop. Come to think of it, I think the Apocalypse is now assured to happen, considering how unlikely this is to happen overall; given my perspective on the matter.

Overall, I kinda wish I was given the kind of advice and info I got out of all this discussion at least a fair decade ago. Or at least, in past discussions at the time, came to these kinds of conclusions.

EDIT:
Where I can sorta draw the line of my reasoning, and why I was doing my own form of psychological research as to this mystery, is that as old as I am, and since there's another generation of my bloodline, I want to be able to give the advice nobody else could or wanted to give; or at least, give the advice I wish I was given back then (in case I am asked). Basically, once I figure out this mystery, I could then provide advice and insight in a manner that is easier to comprehend, and not abuse; and any lame advice that was good, I at least could polish up in a manner to make it less lame to hear. Same advice, better spin, same message received, except more easily acceptable to the receiving party.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 04:18:32 pm by Itnetlolor »
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Vector

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Re: "Why don't women like nice guys?"
« Reply #113 on: November 13, 2012, 04:56:47 pm »

Seeing this topic come up, and started by a woman, no less (especially Vector), caught my attention. [...] All the stuff mentioned so far is the kind of stuff I've been demanding to result from such a discussion for ages (tangible opinions and information I can actually use to work with; leading to actually useful, and practical, advice, for once).

Good to hear it--that's the goal.


Unfortunately, I don't have much time to post right now, but I wanted to thank GlyphGryph for his excellent point--and bring up something from Greek philosophy along the same lines.  That is, we should remember that "the best leader is the one who is best led."  Or, put differently, the captain of a sailing vessel is the one who is best able to bend the ship to the will of the winds, and still go somewhere worth going.
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Korbac

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Re: "Why don't women like nice guys?"
« Reply #114 on: November 13, 2012, 05:51:29 pm »

Am I the only one who feels sorry for LordBucket? :( He may not elucidate his ideas in the best way, and he may be uncompromising, but unfortunately, when applied broadly I feel what he says tends to be true. The truth is inconvenient, but that doesn't mean it... isn't the truth... :/

Seriously, whenever LB posts advice it tends to be devoid of emotion and apparently bloated with silent ego... but if you can get past these non - existent 'insults' to your intelligence, he actually gives really good advice.

Important thing I learned here - don't be nice to someone in order to secure a relationship - you are being a jerk.
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kaijyuu

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Re: "Why don't women like nice guys?"
« Reply #115 on: November 13, 2012, 05:53:55 pm »

Important thing I learned here - don't be nice to someone in order to secure a relationship - you are being a jerk.
Only if you're doing it in a manipulative fashion. If you're nice because you're just a nice person, then there's no problem.
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For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Korbac

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Re: "Why don't women like nice guys?"
« Reply #116 on: November 13, 2012, 05:56:04 pm »

If you're being nice TO secure the relationship, there's the problem. As you said, if you're just nice anyway and somehow that leads into one, brilliant. :)
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Leafsnail

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Re: "Why don't women like nice guys?"
« Reply #117 on: November 13, 2012, 06:02:04 pm »

Seriously, whenever LB posts advice it tends to be devoid of emotion and apparently bloated with silent ego... but if you can get past these non - existent 'insults' to your intelligence, he actually gives really good advice.
Maybe he's better normally but in this thread it's sexist babbling dressed up as eastern mysticism.
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Graknorke

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Re: "Why don't women like nice guys?"
« Reply #118 on: November 13, 2012, 06:05:06 pm »

I guess I'll post here to watch the responses here, I can't really contribute anything because I am a huge passive-agressive jerk ("How bad can I make this person feel by being nice to them" type of thing, but not as self-aware when it happens) so my word isn't worth much.
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Putnam

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Re: "Why don't women like nice guys?"
« Reply #119 on: November 13, 2012, 06:30:39 pm »

I'm still caught up in this idea of "jerk". What is a "jerk"? How does one define that? Definitions I've seen boil down to "man who doesn't treat his woman like some sort of goddess" and "man who is girlfriend with my crush".
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