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Author Topic: "Why don't women like nice guys?"  (Read 44956 times)

LordBucket

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Re: "Why don't women like nice guys?"
« Reply #45 on: November 13, 2012, 01:33:32 am »

LordBucket, I'll reiterate since it seems to have gotten lost in the text storm there

Femininity and Masculinity are just a dance we're taught at an early age.

Our basic facts are different. Naturally we come to different conclusions.

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to think that this was a matter of human nature, rather than a matter of working in harmony
with your culturally imposed gender roles, would be foolish and short-sighted.

To think that masculine/feminine requires society, culture, biology or humans at all would be a misunderstanding of masculine/feminine forces. When water erodes rock...that is a masculine/feminine exchange.


Frumple

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Re: "Why don't women like nice guys?"
« Reply #46 on: November 13, 2012, 01:40:48 am »

I'm reminded suddenly of the use of the word Good in medieval philosophy :-\

I'd ask if maybe you could try to use less obfuscating terminology than masculine and feminine (Giving/recieving, active/passive, affecting/effected, etc., so forth, so on.), but then I just kinda' stare at your avatar for a bit and doubts arise of that happening.
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Max White

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Re: "Why don't women like nice guys?"
« Reply #47 on: November 13, 2012, 01:42:17 am »

To think that masculine/feminine requires society, culture, biology or humans at all would be a misunderstanding of masculine/feminine forces. When water erodes rock...that is a masculine/feminine exchange.
Why are you assigning gender roles to the concepts of agents and instruments?

LordBucket

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Re: "Why don't women like nice guys?"
« Reply #48 on: November 13, 2012, 01:50:58 am »

Why are you assigning gender roles to the concepts of agents and instruments?

When working with language, one does not always have the benefit of words, as they are heard by the listener, possessing a one-to-one correlation with the concepts one intends to convey. If you wish, go back through my posts and substitute "masculine" with "yang" and substitute "feminine" with "yin."

But I'm not certain this would result in greater clarity.

Ogdibus

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Re: "Why don't women like nice guys?"
« Reply #49 on: November 13, 2012, 01:52:03 am »

To think that masculine/feminine requires society, culture, biology or humans at all would be a misunderstanding of masculine/feminine forces. When water erodes rock...that is a masculine/feminine exchange.
Why are you assigning gender roles to the concepts of agents and instruments?

I think that you just hit on what makes that idea sound so discomforting.  It does make agency and femininity sound mutually exclusive.  I don't think it's intended to be as rigid of a concept as we might perceive it to be, though.
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Neonivek

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Re: "Why don't women like nice guys?"
« Reply #50 on: November 13, 2012, 01:55:21 am »

Why are you assigning gender roles to the concepts of agents and instruments?

When working with language, one does not always have the benefit of words, as they are heard by the listener, possessing a one-to-one correlation with the concepts one intends to convey. If you wish, go back through my posts and substitute "masculine" with "yang" and substitute "feminine" with "yin."

But I'm not certain this would result in greater clarity.

Except you have already put male and female into those roles.

As well you don't remember that Yin and Yan are often represented as, if I remember correctly, the White Tiger and the Black Lamb (Or some combination).

It actually spoke about achieving a balance in oneself as much as it did with the balance of all. Hense why "Pure" Yin and "Pure" Yan are unbalanced even if they are counterbalanced with their counterpart.

You only go as far as to say that "Females" have a mixed as due to their nature. Which isn't exactly how it works.

Thus can no relationship be Painter and Canvas and is it not desirable for it to be so because that creates a one way relationship. The Painter cannot enter a relationship with the canvas for it can only act upon it and the Canvas cannot enter a relationship with the painter because it can only recieve.

Ultimately this is about creating "Two way" relationships.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 02:00:48 am by Neonivek »
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Bauglir

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Re: "Why don't women like nice guys?"
« Reply #51 on: November 13, 2012, 01:56:47 am »

Well, it does seem like, in a lot of cases, it's beside the point. I notice that you still mention that they have to be a "fairly decent person". I think the thing is, there's a lot of conflation between the two if somebody's saying they want somebody who's nice. "Being nice" is seen as a sign of being a fairly decent person, which makes it seem to be a good superficial cue to look for. But I'm not sure it's really the actual concept being desired, and it's not the world's strongest correlation either. What people are really looking for, I think, is a minimum level of not being a douchebag - but no amount of being decent is going to be enough on its own, so making displays to demonstrate that you are a decent person* is missing the point.

It's the SATs of the Ivy League that is the human heart - there may be a cutoff below which you don't qualify, and it certainly doesn't hurt, but advertising it isn't going to help you out because you need to have something more that makes you you. Making it the foundation of your approach isn't going to get you where you want to go.

Also, people "always going for" types aside, there's a very strong social pressure to be nice, even when you don't want to be. Ignoring that pressure can be taken as a sign of honesty, which is incredibly valuable, and it makes the kindnesses you do show all that much more valuable for the implied sincerity. If you meet somebody who isn't even polite to you until you earn it, and then they ask you for cuddles...

*I'm not saying that people are nice just to make other people think they are. I'm saying that, regardless of the motives, an act of kindness is still such a display, and the usual message it's supposed to communicate is "I'm a good person". If the message is true, you're usually actually doing it for a different reason, but that isn't what I'm getting at. The message is still there, even if it isn't your motivation.

/not even going to touch the masculinity/femininity tangent
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Neonivek

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Re: "Why don't women like nice guys?"
« Reply #52 on: November 13, 2012, 01:58:26 am »

Quote
not even going to touch the masculinity/femininity tangent

Yeah... you really shouldn't.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: "Why don't women like nice guys?"
« Reply #53 on: November 13, 2012, 01:59:52 am »

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not even going to touch the masculinity/femininity tangent

Yeah... you really shouldn't.
Mostly because it doesn't have anything to do with anything.
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Neonivek

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Re: "Why don't women like nice guys?"
« Reply #54 on: November 13, 2012, 02:02:26 am »

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not even going to touch the masculinity/femininity tangent

Yeah... you really shouldn't.
Mostly because it doesn't have anything to do with anything.

I honestly don't know if it does.

There is something to be said about making sure you establish yourself as being male or female in a relationship (affirming sexuality)... but that isn't what it is.

It is a bit too much "Females need to be told what to do, and men need to assert themselves" and not enough "you must balance you approach between being assertive and being receptive."
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LordBucket

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Re: "Why don't women like nice guys?"
« Reply #55 on: November 13, 2012, 02:03:15 am »

Except you have already put male and female into those roles.

As well you don't remember that Yin and Yan are often represented as, if I remember correctly, the White Tiger and the Black Lamb (Or some combination).

It actually spoke about achieving a balance in oneself as much as it did with the balance of all. Hense why "Pure" Yin and "Pure" Yan are unbalanced even if they are counterbalanced with their counterpart.

You only go as far as to say that "Females" have a mixed as due to their nature. Which isn't exactly how it works.

...I did point out that I didn't think this would result in greater clarity.

Quote

Thus can no relationship be Painter and Canvas and is it not desirable for it to be so because that creates a one way relationship. The Painter cannot enter a relationship with the canvas for it can only act upon it and the Canvas cannot enter a relationship with the painter because it can only recieve.

Ultimately this is about creating "Two way" relationships.

You can assert all you want about how things are "supposed to be," but the fact remains that my model...explains the observable phenomenon. However inconvenient that might happen to be to your worldview.

Neonivek

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Re: "Why don't women like nice guys?"
« Reply #56 on: November 13, 2012, 02:05:20 am »

Quote
You can assert all you want about how things are "supposed to be," but the fact remains that my model...explains the observable phenomenon. However inconvenient that might happen to be to your worldview

It isn't that hard to cut it down. We are talking about a "Relationships".

Those who act and those who are acted upon are not in a relationship. They are disconnected from one another by their limited ability to act upon eachother.

Only by being both the Painter and the Canvas can one be in a true relationship. Its not a world view so much as part of how I even define a relationship.

As well as far as understanding womanhood and manlyhood you have to remember that many of the steriotypical traits we assign to each are imagined or far weaker. Plus psychologically we also have to remember that the balance of personalities within each person is only informed by gender but not defined by it.

Thus a "Masculine" approach would be a constricted approach.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 02:08:06 am by Neonivek »
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Scelly9

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Re: "Why don't women like nice guys?"
« Reply #57 on: November 13, 2012, 02:07:21 am »

my model...explains the observable phenomenon. However inconvenient that might happen to be to your worldview.
Here's the problem I have with this:
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Just because your model explains it, does not mean that it's right.
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Solifuge

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Re: "Why don't women like nice guys?"
« Reply #58 on: November 13, 2012, 02:08:42 am »

Bleh
Blah

The fact that it's a cultural construct doesn't invalidate it entirely. Culture is an extremely powerful thing.

I agree with you, and never said it wasn't. That's irrelevant here, though; Culture is still a fundamentally separate entity than Biology, and though they operate on surprisingly similar laws, arguments that impose a culture-based code of conduct on people as though it were "the natural way of things" need to check themselves, lest they wreck themselves.

(In other news, I just realized the connotations of using Swing for my "gender roles = dance" metaphore. No that wasn't intentional; I meant it literally. Nevertheless, >_<;)


Femenine and Masculine are constructs of culture and not biology.

No. "Masculine" and "feminine" are primal forces that exist on a pre-conscious level. I've given many examples of masculine/feminine relationships that exist in non-biological and non-cultured things. Rocks and canvas, and so forth.

It is a mistake to assume that "man = 100% masculine and woman = 100% feminine." But it is also a mistake to suppose that these fundamental forces magically don't apply just because we happen to be complicated human beings with the capacity to choose.
To think that masculine/feminine requires society, culture, biology or humans at all would be a misunderstanding of masculine/feminine forces. When water erodes rock...that is a masculine/feminine exchange.

As the study of Biology, Culture, and what it is to be Human, are the subjects I've devoted my life to learning, allow me to illustrate why you are wrong.

For starters, you're taking a poetic and spiritual metaphore for interactions between two objects, which is considered in some traditions to be a cosmic force which governs all events in the universe, and using that as the foundation of your argument. I will not debate the significance or reality of Yin and Yang here, but please realize your argument is based on Dogma. Say I had an equally strong Dogmatic conviction that ran at odds with yours... perhaps that I followed the Vedic tradition, and identified as Tritiya-Prakriti... we could argue indefinitely. That's because Dogma is based on personal convictions and presupposes the existence of Final Causation. It is not a substitute for Logic.

Stepping outside the realm of spirituality for a moment, allow me to point out how gender is a relative thing, defined by the culture you were born in. To the Yanomamo of South America, you are not a Man, nor am I a Man. Riddick from Pitch Black might be considered a Man, but only because he's a violent, backstabbing douche. Theirs is a culture that idolizes ferocity, posturing, and standing up for yourself through acts of aggression (though these usually end before open violence). A Man in their culture is expected to steal from their neighbor if you thought they wouldn't retaliate... and this would considered your neighbor's fault for not scaring you off. In their culture, it's the duty of a Husband to beat his Wife viciously, because it helps protect their family; their husband looks more frightening and powerful when he's willing to hurt his Wife over trifles, and thus is a Man worthy of respect and power.

So yeah, you and I would not be considered Men to them, nor would we be Women. We'd occupy some weird Third-Gender between the two, would most likely never be able to Marry or rise to any position of power, and would generally have no place in their society. Interestingly, it's not unlike how Western culture has historically treated people who don't fall neatly into the gender roles it provides, such as "passive" or "feminine" men. However, just because you don't qualify as a Man to the Yanomamo doesn't mean that Western Culture would view you any differently than it does now... whether you are or aren't a Man all depends on who you ask.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 02:13:05 am by Solifuge »
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LordBucket

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Re: "Why don't women like nice guys?"
« Reply #59 on: November 13, 2012, 02:09:33 am »

Those who act and those who are acted upon are not in a relationship.

How are they not?

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They are disconnected from one another by their limited ability to act upon eachother.

I'm not sure i understand what you mean. Your two sentences appear to be in contradiction to each other. In the first you specify "those who act and those who are acted upon." Then in the next sentence you say that they're "disconnected by their limited ability to act upon each other." If they're acting upon, how is that a limitation to their ability to act upon?

I don't understand what you're trying to say.

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