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[webadict]

Wuba:

Wuba: please clarify: if at end of day one player has 4 votes, and three others two votes (none with three votes), is then the duel between all four players, lynchee decided at random?

Correct. All four people duel it out.

Somebody better prepare some body bags.

Amusing, but please be clear: if one player has four votes and three players have two votes, please state which players duel, how many survive, how many die, and how is the outcome determined?

All 4 of them duel. I randomly choose one of them, and the rest of them die.

The outcome is chosen by me throwing cats at a wall with their names on a different one, and the cat that meows the loudest from the collision is chosen to live. In other words:

One player is chosen at random to win the duel.

[zombie urist]

Kinda tired.

D2s election didn't really provide any useful information.

I'm kinda suprised that Toaster made it through the night, though Im hesitant to draw any conclusions from this.

I disagree with Bookthras on the Ls death miller thing.

Just going to throw a vote on Tylui until he shows up or something else.

[Jack A T]

Jack AT: I think you are MrCelt's buddy. You were careful not to antagonise them, and your pokes at him read more like coaching than suspicion. Then you went out of your way to avoid electing Dariush explicitly because he'd lynch MrCelt. Then "forgot to post" and failed to give even an opinion about Toaster's proposal to lynch him, even though discussion was precisely what you said you wanted from him. Some quotes as background:
<snip>
On top of that, he has been terse and avoided the spotlight quite successfully, while giving some pearls of activelurking like this:
<snip>
Questions for you: What is your opinion of ToonyMan's tunneling on me? What alignment do you think Leafsnail actually had? Has Shakerag answered all your questions?

Bookthras: First, a defense:
*Not posting when Toaster was king: Sleep, school, and not being online in the thin sliver of time between Toaster's post and my sleep.  Hard to discuss something without actually having a chance to discuss it.
*Forgetting to do anything on the forum that one day: Two things here:
1: The stated issue and excuse is consistent with other forum activity at the time, including a consistent excuse in other forum games, I will note.
2: I'm not much for screwing up activities outside one mafia game to get an advantage in said game.  WIFOMy, I know, but still.
*My treatment of MrCelt: It was mostly coaching.  Not as mafioso to mafioso, but as a semi-experienced player to an utter newbie.
*The Toaster vote:  My reasoning for the vote has been detailed already.  The game had hit the point where we had two real choices.  I picked the one I preferred.
*Avoiding the spotlight: When, outside of the Angry Stupid Jack moments that I've been trying to avoid, am I ever in the spotlight?  It's practically part of my meta.

Now, the answers to the questions:
*Opinion of ToonyMan's actions regarding you: Rereading, I'm noticing something: ToonyMan oversimplifies.  A lot.  Here is a good example: his attempt to summarize your logic.  Also, I don't think he's ever addressed your actual reasons for thinking Leafsnail's a deathmiller, aside from your deathmiller claim.  That's rather odd, considering that that is the main topic of the argument.   His failure to respond to the questions here is offputting, too.
I think that the MrCelt comment was a sarcastic rhetorical jab, though.
*My thoughts on Leafsnail's alignment: I don't really want to read very much into Leafsnail's flip.  It's oddly town-like for a mafioso, as people have pointed out.  However, a good point was made by Dariush about the nature of the role perhaps being to confuse the town.  I don't really know, so I'm not going to be basing many opinions on the flip.
*Has Shakerag answered me: Considering the fact that he has not posted in this game since I requested information from him...no.  What exactly were you trying to do with this question?

D2s election didn't really provide any useful information.

I disagree with Bookthras on the Ls death miller thing.

Zombie Urist: First statement: Explain, please.  Second: Why?

Tylui, for reasons stated yesterday.

Need sleep.  Will do more after sleep/school.

[zombie urist]

1. The most helpful guide to finding scum is to see how people vote and for whom. D2 was mostly ppl voting themself and those who didn't really explain.
2. Just don't think he was that scummy. UI, despite being SK, made some really good points on why LS was wrong. I personally thought LS was really scummy and his flip didn't suprise me at all.

[Dariush]

Great. Not only did I get the most underpowered role that has ever existed, but I also got killed. Fuck whoever did that. And fuck Bookthras, just because.

[/bah]

[Hapah]

PFP

Wuba: Can we get a prod on Tylui?

I guess if he doesn't come back AND make himself useful we can feed him into the duel-meatgrinder thing. On a related note, who the hell is messing with the voting system, lol.

Book, Toony: I think Book's got the better case. While I'm not entirely convinced that Leaf was Town, it's certainly not impossible and his role didn't seem like a scum one. It's worth noting that at least one BYOR has had abilities that didn't show with the flip (UI's SK role, which was BYOR9, I think?) and that a deathmiller ability that showed on flip would be kinda dumb.

[ToonyMan]

ToonyMan:

Do both seem equally likely to be scum to you?

Yes.  They're both labeled as part of the mafia faction and the OP has them in red.  I have no reason to doubt their scumitude beyond your deceit.  They even behaved like scum (something you admitted yourself).

Right. They're both painted red because they both flipped mafia. If a death-miller existed, do you think he'd be painted green on the OP when he flipped? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose? How do you think an actual death-miller would be coloured?

I don't think Leafsnail or MrCelt are deathmillers and if they are then you're lying about your role as a D1 scum move unless Webadict made two or more deathmillers, but I didn't read this as a bastard game so I'd like to believe the flips I see.

Sure, Leaf behaved scummily D1, but his flip details give reason to doubt his actual alignment was mafia. You are free to disagree, but when you base that disagreement on lies, faulty logic, and wilful ignorance of facts (like, say, implications of the lack of other kills N1), it reads more like an argument a scum would present to defend a bullshit case.

Except Leafsnail's role could go the exact opposite way trying to make you think he was mafia.  The title implies it's using WIFOM (Conspiracy Theorist) so you should be basing this on how he acted while he was alive and what his actual flip was.  Your confidence in Leafsnail certainly being town feels too sure like you know what his real alignment is. 

As for the lack of other kills I addressed this before, the lack of other kills N1 is something that holds no significance of implication in your case:
Nobody died N1 of BYOR10
Only mafia died N1 of BYOR8, Powder Miner had an ability to hide his role and alignment..
Nobody died N1 of BYOR7
No town died N1 of BYOR6.3
BYOR9 and 5.5 had town die N1, but also at least one non-town alignment.  I shouldn't need to go further to every single game to point this out.

This tunneling based on lies of yours is getting increasingly scummy. I wouldn't mind to see you jump into that duel thing. But before we decide that, let's hear from others first.

I don't mind if you're the dueler, no reason to skitter away.

Right, but you didn't answer my concerns about your case being based on lies or my questions:
- What prompted your question implying I thought MrCelt was town?

Because you think Leafsnail is town.

- When did I say I wanted to lynch Leafsnail D2?

I misread, looking back at the post I was thinking of turns out to be a case of saying Leafsnail is scummier than Urist Imik but UI is a "safer" lynch.  I bet I remembered a past game and put words in your mouth, otherwise I can't find it.

- When did I ignore Leaf flipped mafia?

Huh?  Do you mean "Leaf flipping mafia"?  If that's true I don't understand what you're trying to say either way.

- Is your opinion that the fact Leafsnail didn't claim death-miller D1 means he couldn't be one?

A very high probability, yes.  The only thing I can think of is a mafia with a death-miller kill, which I would really hate Webadict for putting that in.

Do you think Mr. Celt not claiming death-miller means he couldn't be one?

Additional questions: please give your other scum picks with reasons; how do you think the lynch mechanics will impact the day's votes; and state your opinions on scummitude of Shakerag, Toaster and Hapah.

So 'Tiruin scum chores' again I see...

1.
Besides you of course.
Shakerag - hasn't posted this game day but was last on a couple hours ago, being a hypocrite.
Zombie Urist - suspicious of my reasons for voting non-town UI without giving exact reasons, active-lurking.

2.
The two highest scumpicks will duel it out?  Not much should change besides picking two candidates.  If I was being silly I would say we could all vote ourselves and let the game come down to chance, but that's too radical and there's obviously the danger of vote shenanigans.

3.
Shakerag, scum.
Toaster, town (he even hammered Mr. Celt last day).
Hapah, on the fence currently, leaning town.

I'm kinda suprised that Toaster made it through the night, though Im hesitant to draw any conclusions from this.

Why?

Just going to throw a vote on Tylui until he shows up or something else.

You don't seem to care who gets lynched Zombie Urist.

[zombie urist]

1. Because Toaster correctly killed a scum yesterday. If he were a scum, I would think he would have hammered Tylui, since either choice were equally valid. Thus he is very townlike today, and I would think scum would try to eliminate the most town-person. I didn't expect Dariush to be killed. I'm not going to draw any major conclusions because this being a BYOR could have many valid reasons why such a thing happened.
2. Tylui is the scummiest person right now and I'll need to do a reread to find a better target. Im also packing today so that might not happen.

[Toaster]

Toony:  I tend to agree that you're tunnelling Book.  Who else do you suspect and why?


Zombie U:

I disagree with Bookthras on the Ls death miller thing.

Is he scummy for it, or do you just not agree?


Hapah:

Book, Toony: I think Book's got the better case. While I'm not entirely convinced that Leaf was Town, it's certainly not impossible and his role didn't seem like a scum one. It's worth noting that at least one BYOR has had abilities that didn't show with the flip (UI's SK role, which was BYOR9, I think?) and that a deathmiller ability that showed on flip would be kinda dumb.

This is suspect.   It's indirect, but I see you trying to set up a "one or the other must be scum" mentality here.

[Bookthras]

Jack:
Your response makes sense. Your interactions with MrCelt still smell of scum to me, though, especially your arguments against him being a mafioso and your rejection of Dariush for that reason.

*Has Shakerag answered me: Considering the fact that he has not posted in this game since I requested information from him...no.  What exactly were you trying to do with this question?

I had this question in mind, and wonder why you haven't pressed him further on it. But it's true he hasn't posted since.

I think that the MrCelt comment was a sarcastic rhetorical jab, though.

Seeing his more recent response, do you still think so?


ToonyMan:
Dude, you're digging yourself deeper and deeper.

I don't think Leafsnail or MrCelt are deathmillers and if they are then you're lying about your role as a D1 scum move unless Webadict made two or more deathmillers, but I didn't read this as a bastard game so I'd like to believe the flips I see.

Believing the flips as you see them is fine. Lying through your teeth to make a case that I'm scum for not sharing your opinion is scummy. For example:

Your confidence in Leafsnail certainly being town feels too sure like you know what his real alignment is.

Certainty? Where do I claim certainty? You are once again putting words in my mouth I have never said. All I said is that his flip reads like a town flip to me, and therefore find his "mafia" flip unreliable in context. Since I know death millers exist, I consider it likely he may have also been one, but note that there's no certainty that he was town.

You are lying when claiming I said things I didn't.

As for the lack of other kills I addressed this before, the lack of other kills N1 is something that holds no significance of implication in your case:
Only mafia died N1 of BYOR8, Powder Miner had an ability to hide his role and alignment..
No town died N1 of BYOR6.3

Your examples here work against your argument. As I've said, a night with no kills is a different animal (many relatively common things can cause that), but if there is a kill, it should be considered probable (though not certain) that a mafiakill was involved.

In your example, only BYOR8 and BYOR6.3 had N1 deaths. BYOR6.3 it wasn't a town, it was a brother, but it was a mafiakill that made it. In BYOR8 it was also a mafiakill: PowerMinder had a power similar to that of MrCelt: suicide yourself to recruit a new scum.

In summary: in every case you cite, whenever someone died, a mafiakill was involved. Here someone died. We should consider it probable that a mafiakill was involved. Either a) the mafiakill was redirected to the mafioso Leafsnail, or b) it succeeded against the deathmiller Leafsnail, or c) a combination of a lucky block/protect on the mafiakill plus a town/SK vigkill.

As a coincidence is inherently less probable than a straight explanation, when combined with the other factors (townie-like flip, I know death millers exist) I find it more probable (but still not certain) that that's indeed what happened.

Again, feel free to disagree, but stop lying.

Powder Miner - Something Fun
(Auto) Fun: You are immune to blocks, redirections, or randomizations.
(1-Shot, Mafiakill) Something [target]: You recruit the target into the Mafia, giving them your role. This action cannot be stopped by protection, kill immunity, or blocks, though it may be stopped by other abilities. You die. You do not flip your role.
(Night) Have Some [target]: The target inspects as Mafia for this Night Phase.

I misread, [...] I bet I remembered a past game and put words in your mouth.

Which you are still doing:

- When did I ignore Leaf flipped mafia?

Huh?  Do you mean "Leaf flipping mafia"?  If that's true I don't understand what you're trying to say either way.

You said here "[your argument] ignores the fact that: 3. Leaf flipped mafia". I challenged you then and challenge you again to point out when did I ignore Leaf flipped mafia. Or are you still misreading and misremembering (AKA "lying")?

Do you think Mr. Celt not claiming death-miller means he couldn't be one?

No, I think his flip with a mafiakill and mafia-like abilities means he couldn't be one. You are the one bringing up "golden rules" and what claiming means for who could be what.

So 'Tiruin scum chores' again I see...

Asking you to state your scum picks or discuss the day mechanics is not a chore, it is a standard question, and it may even get your head out of your tunnel-like ass.

In summary:
- You lie when you say I was certain Leaf was town.
- You lie when you say I forgot Leaf flipped mafia.
- You build a bullshit strawman by implying I care about who claimed miller when or how, or that I thought MrCelt was town.
- You admitted to lying about my D2 lynch target.
- You are ridiculously deflecting by calling my request for your picks "chores" that must mean I'm scum.
- Your argument about N1 kills is not a lie, merely ineffective.

Up to this point I had found your lies scummy, but haven't thought you are necessarily scum for them: mistrust of a miller claim is healthy and differing opinions on events are to be expected. However, your continued doubling-down on the same lies and coming up with new ones is forcing me to reevaluate this. Perhaps you are building a bullshit case on lies on purpose after all, and not out of mere incompetence.


Wuba: please prod Shakerag and Tylui again. With a shotgun if you have to.

[zombie urist]

Bookthras do you think LS is a death miller or not. Please keep your answer to a max of ten words. Pfp

[Bookthras]

Epistemological rigour necessarily invalidates dichotomies given the inexorable uncertainties inherent.

Heheh. How's that for ten words? But seriously, read my friggin' post. You may want to search for the words "I consider it likely" (but not certain). I can't categorically state whether he was or he wasn't, all I can say is that, given the factors mentioned, I think it's likely.

Brief enough?

[Jack A T]

1. The most helpful guide to finding scum is to see how people vote and for whom. D2 was mostly ppl voting themself and those who didn't really explain.

Zombie Urist: And is that really enough to make D2 useless, considering that people were still pushing for specific lynches?

I had this question in mind, and wonder why you haven't pressed him further on it. But it's true he hasn't posted since.

Which reminds me: there's someone else who hasn't answered a question of mine from there.
Toaster: Would you care to answer my question here?

I think that the MrCelt comment was a sarcastic rhetorical jab, though.

Seeing his more recent response, do you still think so?

Bookthras: I still think it was a sarcastic rhetorical jab, initially, used to get across his opinion that there's no difference between the MrCelt flip and the Leafsnail flip.  The underlying opinion is certainly something he's arguing over.

ToonyMan: If you were a town deathmiller, would you treat it strategically as if you were a town inspectmiller?  Why?

Sure, Leaf behaved scummily D1, but his flip details give reason to doubt his actual alignment was mafia. You are free to disagree, but when you base that disagreement on lies, faulty logic, and wilful ignorance of facts (like, say, implications of the lack of other kills N1), it reads more like an argument a scum would present to defend a bullshit case.

Except Leafsnail's role could go the exact opposite way trying to make you think he was mafia.  The title implies it's using WIFOM (Conspiracy Theorist) so you should be basing this on how he acted while he was alive and what his actual flip was.  Your confidence in Leafsnail certainly being town feels too sure like you know what his real alignment is. 

Just to be clear: You're saying that Leafsnail's roleflip may or may not be a huge mass of WIFOM, and that you agree with the Dariush interpretation of the flip.  Thus, because the roleflip could be a mass of WIFOM, Bookthras should base his actions on Leafsnail's behaviour and..."what his actual flip was."  Right?  Why exactly does this much admitted WIFOM with the flip make it a good idea to depend on said flip for information?  At all?

[Tylui]

Hello everyone. First off I'd like to apologize for my absense... A cloase family member who lives 4 hours away was in the hospital, and we didn't think she'd make it. Luckily she did, but everything else in my life kinda was put on hold and, frankly, I forgot about this game until a couple of nights ago. The 13th and 14th I was cowering from the gigantic amount of text I'm going to have to read to make a post.

It might still be a couple of or several hours until I respond to all the old stuff, but there is a large, boring reply incoming later today.

[Teneb]

I'd also like to hear more from Deathsword, Tylui, Shakerag and Zombie: please give your top scumpicks with reasons, and ask the others a question.

Tylui, because of all the stuff that I brought up in D1 that he hasn't adressed. And since he has reappeared, I'd like to know if he has anything to say about all that.