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[Vector]

EDIT: This OP was a total clusterfuck.  Please see a more general discussion of a similar topic here.

Spoiler: FLUSTERCUCK (click to show/hide)

Do you like clingy, dependent, needy doormat-women?

Having recently ended a relationship with someone and started thinking more about who I'd rather be with, I figured I'd head out here and supply what little bit of information I've gathered on this frequently pondered question.  I have come to realize that I really do not like guys who easily say stuff like they'd never abandon me, or smother me with compliments, or whatever (usually these guys do not even mean it; I don't want to hear it if they don't think it).  I am not alive to be patted and made to feel good about life.  I want to grow and become a better me.  Sometimes that means a cup of tea and sweet nothings, and sometimes that means a kick in the ass.  If I can't get either of these things as necessary, then the person in question will not be what I need in a partner.

I am not trying to speak for all women.  Women are not a monolith, after all.  But what I am trying to say is that we often conflate someone who hurts people with a person who is nasty (how often do we hurt people without meaning it or leave the wrong first impression?  Very frequently!).  For many people, the primary thing to be satisfied is not "always makes me feel good."  For example, I left a very happy relationship because I didn't feel satisfied--because what I wanted wasn't just a good time.  I wanted to be deeply understood, and to understand someone else at their core, which sometimes doesn't feel very good.  But, all the same, that's what I want more than anything else.  The other person wanted some happy memories for his scrapbook and a pretty shallow relationship, so there was friction and we had to split.

So, rather than trying to say "what's wrong with women?" or "what's wrong with men?" I think the better question to ask, most of the time, is "were our needs and desires in line?"  I hear so many people blaming other people for something as elementary as not wanting the same thing, blaming genders, blaming people for wanting someone or something else, blaming people for being "wrong."  It seems to me that most of the time, the real problem is that we're hurt by the energy and care we put into a failed project, and so we blame other people for the failure as though it were their fault for not quite being what we wanted or needed.

Discuss.

[GoombaGeek]

When I get a girlfriend I plan to steal her car and run her over with it.

DISCUSS

[Vector]

Huh?  Have I done something wrong?

I'm writing a post here specifically because I keep on seeing bullcrap flying around here and a lot of other places on why women don't want someone to be nice to them, and having finally discovered why I personally don't like "nice guys" and would prefer not to go out with one, I figured I'd add to the local lexicon.  Of course, one normally would have this as a response to someone's romantic inquiry rather than a post in and of itself, but I thought it was value-added anyway.

[Truean]

To answer the original title question: "Differences in definition of 'nice.'"

Most "nice guys" are trying way too damn hard and it feels suspicious as hell:

"And I swear
that I don't have a gun.
No I don't have a gun.
No I don't have a gun.
No I don't have a gun.
No I don't have a gun.
Memoria, memoria." ~Nirvana, 'Come as you are.'

Is there anyone foolish enough to think that person doesn't have a gun? They do. The fact that they are saying they don't is suspicious as hell/weird. There's too much effort on their part to convince you they don't have a gun. They do.

Same thing with the "nice ones." It falls into the, "if it seems too good to be true, then it probably is," category. Chill out and make being nice normal. Learn the balance of knowing when to push, pull or just sorta go with it. Stand up for yourself, but pick your battles. Half the time it's the vibe you give off rather than anything else.

That said, I will never understand why some people love hanging around/being with total jerks, aka, omnibastards, if you will. These are the ones with several domestic violence convictions, no manners and all of her friends having wanted to smack him at some point....

I was never fooled by Fabio. I can believe it's not butter. I can believe he's a bastard. The fake; it's not fooling....

[GoombaGeek]

The gun is a metaphor for both penises and the atomic bomb.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Two things:

A. This seems like it better fits GD.

B. I'm not making the connection between the "nice guys" thing in the title and your post, which seems to be primarily concerning the purpose of having a partner at all.

[mainiac]

Goomba is being a bit of an idiot there.

I can speak from experience about the other side of the equation, dating a girl who gets clingy and submissive.  It's v. annoying.  I date her because I like her a lot and I don't want to see someone I like in distress, especially self inflicted distress, especially especially self inflicted distress on account of me.  I feel all guilty like I'm hurting her.  But I think the stars and the moon about this girl and she likes me so I figure that both of us want to stick it through and work these issues out.  We're coming up on three years and I feel like we're happier with each other then we used to be so I say that it's an issue that can be worked through, although we still need to keep going.

Sometimes I do think that we made a mistake getting to the l-word so quickly.  She was very insecure and wanted to be in a loving relationship and I liked her so much and wanted her to be happy so very badly.  I made her happy but I also fostered a sense of neediness which I feel guilty about.  I don't think it's something that we will never be able to remove from the relationship but it's a very slow process to unwind that neediness from our relationship while leaving our love intact.

[Vector]

Yeah, I need to edit and clarify it.  I've gotten somewhat out of practice in writing forum posts.  Give me a few minutes to edit, and then I'll send it to GD.

[darkrider2]

I live near a guy that does the 'being absurdly nice' thing. It gets really annoying to be around, and I'm not even a woman.

OH WAIT HOLD ON I GOT SOMETHING FOR THIS.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[freeformschooler]

especially self inflicted distress, especially especially self inflicted distress on account of me.  I feel all guilty like I'm hurting her.

You also have to watch out for this one. There are people - especially of the "helpless, need a hero" type - who are very good at making you think you're causing their distress.

Guilt is control. I like independent people who I can trust to go take care of their own life and vica versa.

[kaijyuu]

What about us clingy, dependent, needy doormat men?


While I lack your experience Vector, I'm pretty much the same way. I'll find out in time just what I want and such, but right now I wouldn't want someone who just showers me with meaningless complements either. Meaningful ones, sure!

[Solifuge]

Being a nice person, and being a genuine or honest person are not naturally at odds. I can't vouch for the motivations of everyone, but I've gotten the "Nice Guy" label before, and can at least speak for myself in this regard.

When I go out of my way to do something for someone else, like hold a door open for someone, or cover them when they're a few cents short at a cash register, people might thank me, joke that I'm being chivalrous, or whatever. Though appreciation always feels good, I have other reasons for doing these sorts of things; they're near-effortless actions I can take, which generally save someone else considerably more work. Acts like that help create a tiny boost of efficiency, and make the greater machine of society, and the lives of those who make that society up, that much smoother. It's the basic spirit behind civilization itself. Every big thing, like a social environment, a national industry, or a person's lifetime, are each made up of individual choices and actions taken by the person or people that make it up, and everyone that interacts with them... and then, everyone who interacts with those tangentially-connected people, and so on, and so on.

So yeah, when I compliment someone's attitude, admire their ability to tell a joke, or thank them for helping me with something, it's because I'm impressed by or appreciate that quality they have... and I want them to cherish that aspect of themselves, because I feel it's making a positive difference in the world. This same spirit inspires critiques too... saying things like "You're a fantastic cook!" or "Learn how to drive!" both factor into this philosophy of leaving the places, people, and things I encounter better off than they were when I found them.

I think, when people are encouraging children to be nice to others, it's because they lack the language to be able to express how their every action contributes to the big picture. We, and every choice we make, connects us to everyone and everything else in thousands of ways we will never be able to know... and that's not a spirituality thing. It's a causality thing.

Spoiler: TL;DR - Let's try to not conflate "kindness" with "dishonesty for personal gain" here. (click to show/hide)

[Caz]

Most people who claim to be a 'nice guy' are usually insecure pricks with issues and use the "omg women only date assholes, why do they wonder when their life sucks?" as a rationalisation for why no one will go out with them.

[Vector]

Dudes, the non-clusterfuck-OP is actually going to be so different that I think it'd be better to start with a fresh topic--so I'm going to go ahead and lock this one, and start a new thread for discussion in GD.  I'm sorry to waste the time of those who have already contributed.