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[HaDeZs]

So, after many many many many hours playing DF the regular way with invasions I decided on removing invaders and playing the game as a city building/management game.  I'm in a game now about 4 hours in that's actually very enjoyable and I don't feel like I'm missing anything, completely unexpected.  And I know if I ever want to fight later in the game there is always cave exploration and hell to play with.  Im no longer confining my fort to the minimal Z levels due to invasions and efficiency while spending more time fighting/military than building and exploring.  Maybe im playing the game wrong and noone else has these issues, probably am but I think its good to see a different view/perspective on DF.  Maybe im hoping for a less sadistic gameplay mechanic that revolves around the fun of dying dwarves and constantly forcing you to redo maps/fortresses because of a simple screw up.  Remaking forts every few hours does get quite boring/annoying over stupid little mistakes which was why I quit DF a year ago. 

After going non invader I realized I was spending WAY too much time on my military/preparations and not spending enough time on everything else the first few years of my fort.  I mean, who actually sets up soap making, glazing, or honey except the guys who are super late game and have nothing else to do.  Who knows how bad the next invasion is going to be and if im gonna lose my 20+ hours played this fort or how much i'll have to go back into my saves to fix any problems.  It shouldn't take me more time to get a military set up and trained through multiple menus and options and settings while getting my dwarves the necessities to live happy takes me 1/10 the time and energy.  My dwarves know how to drop everything and go drink/eat/sleep but they don't realize there is a major invasion and should run to safety without me forcing them all the while the game gives me more and more options on how I can tell my dwarves to run away in fear and hide, all with possible bugs and conflicts that I won't know until 10 hours playing.  The core right now to the game is its revolving around the invasion mechanic when you step back and look at the game after playing.  I think if the core gameplay was focused elsewhere a ton of options would open up in the direction the game could and should go.

In playing the non invader version I realized how much the invasions actually hindered my view on the real core gameplay and that the game could be massively expanded/changed to still include a bunch of fighting without absolutely requiring it until you choose to.  Simplistically, the game plays like a tower defence survival without the towers.  There's so much complexity to every other part of the game but the simplicity how and when you get invaded as the basic core game mechanic hasn't changed or hasn't been "complexified" like every other feature of the game.  Even mods that are made always add more fluff to the game instead of modding the more important and interesting stuff. 

For one it would be great to actually find a dungeon through digging that contain bosses or megabeasts.  Instead or added to the cave system maybe there are old dungeon ruins that you dig into that contain random monsters with a boss that has some rarer materials/loot, to control the speed of dungeons you would need to dig into other rooms deeper into the dungeon on the same Z level or something.  Maybe those ruins/dungeons randomly spawn waves of monsters under certain conditions which forces a new gameplay where you need to set up fortifications next to your entrance to the dungeon you found.  That alone beats out random surface invasions while your still scrounging to get your fort prepared and this could be set up as another game type. 

Anyways, these are the reasons I decided on going non invader, it really is more complaining than actual large problems because the overhaul to military is 10 fold better than it was previous patches along with the hospitals.  I got really fed up with how extremely annoying the military system is to get set up and working properly.  Then one bad invasion with a few deaths can completely destroy a fort between the invaders and dwarves going on a rampage.  I can't tell you one thing that is as hard and annoying to do in this game as military management.  I always had a hard time getting training to actually work right, dwarves were always missing some key skills to get training going flawlessly, theres nothing as annoying as watching a group of recruits standing waiting to train for a few seasons.  Danger rooms worked so that training was a non issue but it really took a lot out of the game.  The main issue I find with DF and the combat system as far as it affects the game as a whole is that deaths really matter and have a significant impact on the game.  Any screw up with the military system affects your whole fort extremely quickly, the majority of screw ups can't be fixed easily and require you to reload a previous save to try again on a new fort. Theres a few other things like problems with burrows, stupid dwarves during invasions, archery issues, pathing, ect that make the combat part of the game an annoyance instead of as easy as setting up an armor making chain which is actually a complex process.  I do know that once I set up that armor making chain that I get armor, I can't say the same for my time spent setting up the military because of outside factors.  What if my whole squad except for 1 goes after 1 goblin while the rest of the goblin invasion plows that single squad member.  Completely out of my control.

[Loud Whispers]

He he he, there's no way to play DF wrong. Well, it's hard to anyways. The whole idea of invaders to me is that I've got my goals, and I have to factor in these issues to make my goals be functional and always take into consideration there will be things out to render those goals moot.
It adds so much more value to Forts you have until they fall. Honestly if you aren't some careless tyrant your Dwarves should be safe, rarely have I had some one tile designation wrong go and kill all of my Dwarves. What's more likely is a misunderstanding of game mechanics (so much flooding). Now here comes the irony bit, I'm opposed to save scumming whatsoever because it renders this investment worthless. You're fighting uphill to make a Fortress (a Fortress meant to hold out against sieges), and the more industry you acquire the more Dwarven you get. I'd make soap and honey with all that loveliness if I had the resources - they're things I'd imagine my Dwarves not wanting to be without.
And if you're just going to save scum and take away the joy of losing, you might as well play without invaders on. Which I guess leads to here. Mind you, I'm not being critical, like I said there's no one right or wrong way to build a sand castle in those ever growing sands. I guess the only difference here is some build by the high grounds whilst others build closer to sea, making something impressive before the inevitable tide washes it all away.

[Nuoya]

If you are having fun then you are playing DF correctly. I like invaders and evil biomes because I am a twisted person who likes seeing hours of work collapse because the mayor got one shotted by a tantruming soldier (who then reanimates and kills his friends). But sometimes I take a break from the zombies and embark in a normal region and enjoy myself so much because I can just focus on building things once I get a nice simple defense scheme up.

[AutomataKittay]

I enjoy playing without invaders if I'm focused on industrial fortress design, or is playing around with designs and ideas. I use blocks everywhere and don't worries about gaps that's left behind them, because I look at it from dwarves' point of view, how should they care about what they can't get to?

If I want to fight something, I turn the invaders on. Forgotten beasts comes comes on invasion timers, it seems, so if you walls yourself off aboveground, you could find those terrors as dungeon bosses of some sort

You can turn off caravans by removing ( I believe ) active seasons tags, so that helps to reduce managing them, if you're worried about it. I -believe- invasions depends on those tags to time their invasions too, so if you removes them, then you'll only have to face forgotten beasts and titans.

I've honestly not had much problem with military, but I also tend to go with combo of trap and fortified markdwarves to grind up anything that comes in. Death mattering a lot is pretty much the one social element that makes happiness important. Death by old age happens too ( and tend to outnumber combat and accident deaths in long run for me ).

I don't think there're really a 'core' gameplay element, it's supposed to be you running a city or fortress within the world. And if it so happen that someone's out to get you and you're in the right place...

So there're the fortress where you protect your dwarves the best you can ( or badly if you have some strange goal in mind ). The building game where you design and build up what you want. The industrial game of designing workflow with workshop and stockpile arrangment. The economical game of trading enough to send traders home twice as rich with as little material used as possible (This one don't really works well because everything is fixed-price ).

So regardless of how it goes, if you enjoy a certain way, then it's your pleasure!

You might enjoy some mods too, if you're looking for more internal details, instead of facing the enemies.

[Deathworks]

Hi!

I always play with invaders off, since I am not that much interested in the combat part. For me, the surprising decisions of the dwarves, the discoveries in the art are sufficient variants within my designing fortresses. Seeing dwarves fall in love, founding families, maybe seeing a loved one  pass away, those can be quite interesting. Then I look at all the engravings on the walls and they tell epic tales of the past and glorify the present. And when the caravan comes and the mood strikes me, I look carefully at their artwork, as they tell different tales from distant lands. There is always something new to discover. And at the same time, I can construct my own dwarven mountain home.

So, I agree wholeheartedly that non-invader game play can be very satisfying and varied. But as people have pointed out, everyone has their own preferences, and some like it this way and some a different way.

Yours,
Deathworks

[Bloodyharbinger]

My current fort does not have any elf or goblin neighbors. I get the rare kobold, but for the most part, only FBs and things like ettins show up. It really helped me learn the game details and how the military works without the stress of ambush or invasion.

I am kind of looking forward to retired forts in the future. I like the idea of building a powerful mountainhome, retiring and then going on to  build close by in an evil biome and having the support of my first fort. That and visiting in adventure mode.

[Vattic]

Back in 40d I rarely bothered with a military and leaned heavily on elaborate death traps (some of which I've posted on here). Mostly this was so I could focus on my fort design and getting multiple industries running. I realised I was basically playing with invaders turned off and since occasionally run forts with them actually turned off.

[HaDeZs]

......... The whole idea of invaders to me is that I've got my goals, and I have to factor in these issues to make my goals be functional and always take into consideration there will be things out to render those goals moot......

Thats exactly what I thought I would find missing in the forts.  That I would get bored the first few hours of having it too easy.  But I found it to be more to my liking not having to worry about a military right away although I can see myself wanting some more fighting aside from cave roaming. 

I usually set up trap systems, usually cage traps until I get better weapons for more intricate things and have a one squad military for cleanup on the map for anything not going for the traps.  But, ambushes and invasions are something I would like to see less of.  After reading about the reduced abush/invasion from not having any elf/goblin neighbors I might set up a fort doing that so I only get the rare stuff.  I can deal with that, seasonal ambushes/invasions I could use a break from. 

Thanks for making this thread interesting and helpful.  I was expecting what usually happens in threads for game forums, a lot of name calling and bashing. 

[Altruist]

If you turn off invaders, can you turn them back on again, if you get bored of pure industry and/or ready with a military?

[Azated]

I like to keep invaders on but lock myself into my fort until I have a reasonably well trained and equipped military, preferably with siege weapons or a crossbow dorf dodge corridor.

[kingubu]

I once embarked on an island volcano and went about 7 years before I noticed there were no goblins.  I abandoned in year 25 after building my super glass fortress to the sky.  It was ok.  But I need gobbos to keep me interested.

And I always keep bees.  I don't want them to get away.  I keep bees on elastic, so they go out and get pollen and then come right back.  My father was a beekeeper.  His father was a beekeeper.  I follow in their footsteps.

[AllThingsLive]

I like the invasions for the fact that they create a deadline, otherwise I'm just sitting there building stuff.
BUT, the thing that I really loved about Dwarf Fortress and what got me hooked to begin with was the feeling that there were these 7 little people in the middle of a forest, with nothing. They dig underground, dig some furrows in the sand and wet it, eat the mushrooms that grow, cut down the mighty trees there, etc. I was basically amazed with the lore of the game and the feeling of it being a survival game. I really enjoy minimalist camping and bushcraft and shit like that, so the visualization of that is what made the game awesome to me.

[AutomataKittay]

If you turn off invaders, can you turn them back on again, if you get bored of pure industry and/or ready with a military?

Yep, I does it all the time. Forgotten beasts and titans are blocked when invaders are set to off, I tend to get a little explosion of goblin and monsters

[Loud Whispers]

I was expecting what usually happens in threads for game forums, a lot of name calling and bashing.

Not while the community lives!

[Deathworks]

Hello!

I was expecting what usually happens in threads for game forums, a lot of name calling and bashing.

Not while the community lives!

Actually, that is one of the most bizarre aspects of this community. On the one hand, the discussions regularly contain horrible deeds and plans for murder, torture and deprived acts that would make most people want to lock you up and throw away the keys, and on the other hand, the community as a whole is very friendly towards its members, including newbies. It is kind of like one of those London clubs in the 19th (?) century where the gentlemen sit on fluffy couches and calmly discuss over a cup of tea how to mutilate and murder the next wave of dwarven migrants...

Yours,
Deathworks