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[Maklak]

> That stained glass window Discord was messing with. To be fair, it was intended to be a joke.
Heh, this is what I was talking about. Some joke visible for a few seconds in the background of one episode and people notice it and talk about it and I don't get it.

> Ok, uploading the Phoebus version later tonight.
It actually took me a while to figure out why you had a problem here, but it is quite obvious. You're not upgrading the old version with new RAWs, but actually have to upgrade a 0.40 df version. Well, remember that in addition to Phobeus, FoE had a few customs sprites made by Deon (and Lycaeon?) for robots, monsters and so on, so you probably want to include that too.

> I meant, what effects could drugs have on prisoners?
Presumably up to and including caste transformations, like Pinkamena robot currently does.

> Plants
Here is my table with plants from previous version: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=118893.msg4117958;topicseen#msg4117958

> Apart from that, there are agave bushes, which only yield tequila
In FoE mod agave or some other cacti gives a decent drink (value 3) and can be used at a screw press to produce buckets of water for the hospital.
> Of these, if we are following his mod, I would prefer to just have one of each class
Yep, keep it relatively simple. DF 0.40 has too many plants, just as 31.25 (?) had too many animals. When you add poppy, mushrooms and other plants for drug production it will still be more plants than it makes sense to grow in one fort (well, maybe Replica can pull it off, but I can't).

> You have no idea how much time I have spent trying to make this work, but I think I'm close.
Close is probably good enough. If anything, stay on this side of "weak". Just remember to buff the turrets as well. I've seen a graph of what it takes to pierce a material in some old thread and it looked like a cliff. Either the majority of attacks were barely weakened by armour or majority of them were deflected, with little room in-between.

> Also, just asking, what are your opinions now on mainframes?
Sadly no maneframes that you can link up to terminals are even possible. For making things out of gems there is the talisman forge. I'd have to see proposals of what maneframes could do to have an opinion, so my preliminary opinion is "meh".

> Should shale be refinable into flamer fuel (not a 1:1 ratio)?
Maybe, but I wouldn't really bother. What little flamer fuel I need, I can make out of alcohol. But then I think there is a reaction to make coke out of flamer fuel, so maybe it makes sense to have another source, although we already have a lot of wood to make charcoal. So I don't know.

> After all, an assault rifle in Fallout might not be the best choice to fight a pissed off Paladin or Enclave soldier, but it'll get the job done.
Versus 12 Damage Threshold and 40% damage resistance, 8-16 damage is inadequate, but a dozen or more just might get the job done with lots of critical hits.

[Splint]

Maybe I should've said "Get the job done - eventually. And after pissing through a good bit of your spare mags."

[UnicodingUnicorn]

> After all, an assault rifle in Fallout might not be the best choice to fight a pissed off Paladin or Enclave soldier, but it'll get the job done.
Only steel combat rifle bullets pierce power armor, that is certain. The trouble is getting bronze bullets to not kill people in steel combat armor while still killing people otherwise.

> Heh, this is what I was talking about. Some joke visible for a few seconds in the background of one episode and people notice it and talk about it and I don't get it.
To be honest, Replica asked for it way before that episode aired and Lycaeon agreed, so might just as well...

> You're not upgrading the old version with new RAWs, but actually have to upgrade a 0.40 df version.
I do not understand that, what I did was to edit the raws so they can be stuffed into .40 without error, then overwrite the entire raws folder of a vanilla .40 installation with those raws. After that, I copied the world gen settings over and added the poles and divine material option. As for the Phoebus graphics, I downloaded the original and overwrote the graphics section of a copy of the ASCII version.

> Here is my table with plants from previous version: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=118893.msg4117958;topicseen#msg4117958
Thanks. You may need to redo it once this revamp is done, though.
> In FoE mod agave or some other cacti gives a decent drink (value 3) and can be used at a screw press to produce buckets of water for the hospital.
Barrel cacti, it was borrowed from Deon's old Fallout mod.
> Yep, keep it relatively simple. DF 0.40 has too many plants, just as 31.25 (?) had too many animals.
On the topic of animals, did Lycaeon fix the falcons and other animals not having children? I forgot to check.
> When you add poppy, mushrooms and other plants for drug production it will still be more plants than it makes sense to grow in one fort (well, maybe Replica can pull it off, but I can't).
So far, I have only added four farmable plants, poppies, tubers and the two mushrooms. I can merge tubers with the yams in Deon's Wasteland mod and according to Wikipedia poppies also produce oil and latex. As for mushrooms, I would rather leave them as-is or herbalism only, just like contaminated rations.
I plan on removing the dye plants or saving one to produce ink for printing and replacing whip vine and longland grass with wheat and a generic 'flour' with flour from cave wheat being called 'Stable flour'. Normal flour is, of course, higher value than Stable flour. Rope reeds are going to be replaced by cotton. As for alcohol, potatoes, which are only edible cooked, can be brewed into vodka (5) and grapes, which are very low yield, can be brewed into wine, which is a high value alcohol (10). Barrel cacti and tumbleweed remain as-is while yam and corn are going to be the edible raw food crops, with yam serving a role in drug production and corn being brewable into low value beer (3). Valley herbs are going to be removed, they just do not fit in.
As for subterranean crops, synth-reeds are going to remain as-is. I am tempted to give them slightly high yields/shorter growth durations since Stable-tec will logically design them to survive in an irradiated environment. I am strongly tempted to leave cave wheat and remove their brewability in since Stable-dwellers will want some variation in their diet. Dimple cups are to be removed. There is a strong case for removing quarry bushes and hence the prepared meals exploit since the oil they produce is now substituted by two above-ground crops. Sweet pods I think should be moved above-ground as sugar cane to give an incentive to Stables to expand overground inside of turtling in a hole in the ground. As for the three root plants (celery, carrot and radish), I think they should be left as-is with a reduced yield and value or be moved above-ground or be changed to being vegetable-can only.

> Sadly no maneframes that you can link up to terminals are even possible. For making things out of gems there is the talisman forge. I'd have to see proposals of what maneframes could do to have an opinion, so my preliminary opinion is "meh".
The linking thing was part of the ideas around fifty pages back. Anyway, since Stable-tec is said to be the maker of terminals (check the FoE wiki), what do you think of a building, requiring a rare "Stable-tec maneframe core", that copies the programming of the Ministry and RobronCo processing matrices onto a Stable-tec processing matrix?

> Maybe, but I wouldn't really bother. What little flamer fuel I need, I can make out of alcohol.
I suggested it because I embarked in an area with a whole lot of shale and it was slightly irritating that I could not make use of it. Do you think 2 shale boulders to a canister of flamer fuel an okay ratio?

Just asking, is  this DFHack for DF2014?

UPDATE: I give up on combat rifles.
Reading through old posts, I also realised tahujdt was working on a construction and MoI arc around ten pages ago. It would really be nice if you could upload it if it is completed. This is still a community mod, only Lycaeon can hold true dominion over it.

[Maklak]

> plants
Maybe change "tuber" to "bloated tuber" to give it more of a mutated feel.
I'm not sure if beer (3) means value 3 or 3 beers per plant. In any case, I wouldn't go above drink value 5 (as per sunshine). I'm not even sure if value of drinks translate to better thoughts because someone wrote somewhere that it seemed random and sounded convincing.
I dislike dimple cups and other dye only plants. They are picked by my herbalists and usually end up clogging my plant stockpiles forever.
I'd drop all the root plants (celery, carror, radis) in favour of bloated tubers and making them vegetable-can only.
Basically as long as I can make everything (food, drink, cloth, oil) and don't have like 40+ plants (not counting trees and salvage), I'm fine.

> what do you think of a building, requiring a rare "Stable-tec maneframe core",
> that copies the programming of the Ministry and RobronCo processing matrices onto a Stable-tec processing matrix?
So we'd basically be trading processing matrices used for terminals for processing matrices for robots. Well, easier then forging, and it is some use for stable-tec processing matrices when there are enough terminals to go around. Then maybe it would be too easy as compared to forging. I'm rather out of touch now, but I guess having this option would be good, except maneframe should perhaps be a pretty end-game building, requiring power talisman and several terminals.
Another option is making our own pipbucks. With all the drugs, pipbucks aren't that good anymore and in Project Horizons one character says that he is working on pip-buck production, but needs more funds. Anyway, compared to robot processing matrices, how hard can they be?

> Do you think 2 shale boulders to a canister of flamer fuel an okay ratio?
I guess so. That's 8 dug up tiles and 2 stones I wouldn't have available for rock crushing, concrete, mechanisms, furniture and all the things I end up using it for.

> Just asking, is this DFHack for DF2014?
It certainly looks like it.

> This is still a community mod, only Lycaeon can hold true dominion over it.
IIRC Lycaeon said that if anyone wants to take over, he is fine with that and some projects (like Dwarf Therapist) changed their maintainer several times. So these things just happen.

[UnicodingUnicorn]

> Maybe change "tuber" to "bloated tuber" to give it more of a mutated feel.
Okay, thanks for the idea.

> I'm not sure if beer (3) means value 3 or 3 beers per plant.
Value 3.
> In any case, I wouldn't go above drink value 5 (as per sunshine).
If I remember correctly, sunshine is value 10. While we are it, grapes are also going to get the [GOOD] tag, they can only be found in the unirradiated parts of the wasteland.
> I'm not even sure if value of drinks translate to better thoughts because someone wrote somewhere that it seemed random and sounded convincing.
In-fluff it also makes sense, wine is rare and valuable. Whiskey is well, whiskey.

> They are picked by my herbalists and usually end up clogging my plant stockpiles forever.
The alternative to dye as ink is mineral ink, but let's discuss that when we actually get around to doing printing. Right now, dye plants will be removed.

> So we'd basically be trading processing matrices used for terminals for processing matrices for robots.
Actually, they are all for terminals, robots do not get involved in this.
> Another option is making our own pipbucks. With all the drugs, pipbucks aren't that good anymore and in Project Horizons one character says that he is working on pip-buck production, but needs more funds. Anyway, compared to robot processing matrices, how hard can they be?
Pipbucks could be a good addition to a Stable-tec arc, probably after some reverse engineering. Personally, I rather have it involve more steps than other reverse engineering, pipbucks are supposed to be complex.
Another problem is that there isn't a thematically-fitting building to put pipbuck production in. If I do a Stable-tec arc, I was thinking about adding a Stable-tec Industrial Complex building along with some other smaller stuff. This could require a power talisman and steel furniture manufacturing could be also moved here from the MWT Prismatic forge. Pipbuck production could be placed here. Plasteel furniture never fit anyway, if I remember correctly, the stuff was valuable even before the Last Day, no one was going to make furniture out of it.

> It certainly looks like it.
Installing to try out.

Ok, so here is the list of crops that are going to be added (values in brackets is the material value):
(Above-ground)
 - Barrel cactus (3), brewable into wasteland water (1), extractable into barrel cactus jam (15), edible raw and cooked [Already inside the mod]
 - Bloated Tuber (1), brewable into beer (3), used in Buck production, edible cooked
 - Poppy (2), not brewable, used in MED-X production, seeds are like rock nuts, not edible
 - Cotton (2), not brewable, produces thread (2), seeds are like rock nuts, not edible
 - Wheat (2), brewable into whiskey (5), millable into flour (20), not edible
 - Corn (2), brewable into moonshine, millable into floor, edible raw and cooked
 - Grapes (4), brewable into wine (10), edible raw and cooked, good biomes only
Cotton and corn are to be borrowed from Deon's Wasteland mod if he gives permission.
[I may add prickle berries to good biomes as part of the Everfree arc]
 - Tumbleweed, as-is, not available on embark, herbalism only
 - Contaminated rations, not brewable, used in Dash production, not edible or cooked, herbalism only
(Subterranean)
 - Synth-reed (2), brewable into synth-cola (2), processable into thread (2), pressible into oil (5), not edible
 - Cave wheat (2), brewable into Stable beer (2), millable into Stable flour (10), not edible
 - Sweet pod (2), brewable into Stable swill (1), millable into sugar (5), candy (10), syrup (5), edible raw and cooked
 - Carrot, celery and radish, as-is, not farmable, only found in vegetable cans
 - Spotted and glowing mushrooms, used in Rage production, not edible, herbalism-only

[Maklak]

> If I remember correctly, sunshine is value 10.
I just checked and sunshine is value 5. I still say that should be the highest value for a normal drink (sparkle cola rad and other drinks with a syndrome can go higher) and beer should be value 2.

> While we are it, grapes are also going to get the [GOOD] tag
Yep, I think it is a good idea to differentiate plants a bit, so they're not available in all biomes. Whip vines were savage and sunberries good in vanilla. Maybe some plants should only grow in savage or evil biomes?

> Dye-only plants
My problem is not that I can make dye out of plants. It is that I have to, because some plants are not edible, not cookable and not brewable. Another somewhat irritating thing is that they come in stacks of 1-3 which translates to 1-3 dye (or flour) and I can buy these things in sacks of 10.

> steel furniture manufacturing
I don't use it because stone is cheaper (while less climatic) and I need all the steel I can get for arms and armour. In any case, I think MWT forge fits the bill more than Stable-tec. But then any forge that can make steel sheets, hinges and screws could produce steel furniture, it isn't that hard compared to weapons and armour.

> plasteel furniture removal
Sure, It was rare and best saved for Scorpion Power Armour.

> Bloated Tuber (1), brewable into beer (3), used in Buck production, edible cooked
If I remember correctly, plants used for drugs would only grow once a year, so maybe increase value to 2 and beer (2). And I think beer is made out of grain, not tubers IRL. And we already have Stable beer. Consider changing the drink to Rot Gut

Hm, there may be too few plants now, not sure.

I'd increast the value of cotton to 3 over synth-reed. This plant needs to have something going for it.

Looks like corn (maize?) is going to be the staple of aboveground crops.

> Sweet pod (2), brewable into Stable swill (1)
The drink value seemls low, especially with it being so sweet and ponies generally liking candy and other sweets.
Come to think of it, if you're doing baking, there should be candy.

> Spotted and glowing mushrooms, used in Rage production, not edible, herbalism-only
Found this: http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Cave_fungus

Some fruit for when Toady finishes making that stuff work: http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fruit Apples and mutfruits will make the most sense to add in.

Some notes from my own experience in gardening (but I have normal (rather heavy) soil, not wasteland:
Fruit trees - easy to grow, but require seasonal cutting and are hard to produce by seeds or combining branches from different races. The harvest is short, but the yield is high. Can be preserved in jars or jam. Need lots of space.
Berries - easy to grow and reproduce, but labor intensive to collect. Can be preserved in jars.
Pumpkin - easy to grow. High yield (I got 450 kg this year and gave that stuff away to several families, nothing save fruit comes even close in yield). They can be kept for 3-9 months and preserved in jars on top of that. Seeds are unstable (pumpkin will mutate from year to year, especially if several races and other plants from the same family grow close by), but it will still be edible). Heck, I got some pumpkins that look like something out of a fallout game.
Beans and peas - easy to grow, but needs something to climb. Labor intensive to collect, but it is tasty and can be preserved when dried.
Roots - I don't have the right kind of soil for them and tend to put them too tightly together.
* Parsnip is easy and grows anywhere (with easily harvestable seeds), but takes up a lot of room and isn't even that tasty.
* Beetroot is OK and the leaves can be preserved in jars and used as soup ingredient. I failed to get any seeds from it, even when I tried.
* Parsley is not as strong as parsnip, but I get anough to use for soup during the summer. I got some seeds.
* Carrot is a failure. I need to use improved soil and even then they don't grow big. I got some seeds.
* I buy some small ones and they grow larger, but not very large. I got some seeds no problem, but the plants die when I try to use these seeds. Tho closes to working reproduction I got is leaving them in for the winter and eventually they split into several smaller onions.
* Celery grow just fine, but mice eat them from below and I failed to get seeds.
* Turnips grow, but bugs tend to eat them. I can get seeds if I want to.
Cabbage
* Lettuce is easy and tasty and the yield is enough for all kinds of salads. Cannot be preserved and I didn't get any seeds. Watch out for snails. Same with spinach.
* Cabbage, cauliflower, broccoli - caterpillars everywhere, don't bother.
* Brussels - the caterpillars can be picked by hand, but don't touch the small round heads. The big leaves are edible too. Medium yield, somewhat labor-intensive, need a lot of room and I can get seeds.
Tomato - pretty tasty, but low yield and labor intensive. I don't even have to extract seeds because the small ones grow like weed. They get sick and die, though.
Maize - needs lots of space and I haven't figured out what to do with it, other than use as soup ingredient.
Sunflower - easy to grow, but very low yield. Older plants can be used as stalks for beans to climb, but until they're over 1m tall, they're vulnerable.

[UnicodingUnicorn]

> I just checked and sunshine is value 5.
Oops, it was 10 in .34.

> I still say that should be the highest value for a normal drink (sparkle cola rad and other drinks with a syndrome can go higher) and beer should be value 2.
Okay.

> Dye-plants.
I don't think any of the plants in this mod can be milled to dye logically, also, who cares about looking pretty in the wasteland?

> I don't use it because stone is cheaper (while less climatic) and I need all the steel I can get for arms and armour.
It's mostly just for fluff. I forgot to mention that I will also be adding efficient light horseshoe production and plastic (Neowulf would be credited.

> If I remember correctly, plants used for drugs would only grow once a year, so maybe increase value to 2 and beer (2).
Now, all above ground plants are growable from Spring to Autumn since they have a myriad of uses.

I am thinking of making subterranean crops growable in a lower number of seasons to give players a reason to want to plant above-ground.

> And I think beer is made out of grain, not tubers IRL.
Okay, wheat is getting beer.
> And we already have Stable beer. Consider changing the drink to Rot Gut
Or whiskey. Think of Blackjack! (joke)

> I'd increast the value of cotton to 3 over synth-reed. This plant needs to have something going for it.
Okay.

> Looks like corn (maize?) is going to be the staple of aboveground crops.
Good point, I did not realise corn was a direct advantage over barrel cactus, how about rice? Requires wet biomes and requires processing, but produces larger stacks of grain, kind of like quarry bushes.

> The drink value seemls low, especially with it being so sweet and ponies generally liking candy and other sweets.
Sweet pods can be eaten raw and are also processable into three mid value products, I wanted something that would give players a reason to plant cave wheat rather than it.

> Come to think of it, if you're doing baking, there should be candy.
Candy is already in the mod.

> Found this: http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Cave_fungus
The scarcity of Rage comes from two different rare ingredients, I am not sure how replacing the two with one will affect balance.

> Some fruit for when Toady finishes making that stuff work: http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fruit Apples and mutfruits will make the most sense to add in.
If I remember correctly, that is still some way off.

> Assorted gardening data
I am not sure how to make use of that.

UPDATE: How do ponies eat corn off the cob?
Also, I have determined the cause of turrets not shooting stuff, it is due to their [IMMOBILE] tag.

[Maklak]

> I forgot to mention that I will also be adding efficient light horseshoe production
I never had any issue with horseshoes. Ponies die fast and I just recycle clothes. Besides, bronze security horseshoes are easy to make.

> I am thinking of making subterranean crops growable in a lower number of seasons to give players a reason to want to plant above-ground.
Not a bad idea, but the downside may be a possibility of starvation. Huh, looks like we don't have any easily edible subterraneran crops. This is a bad thing for evil biomes where digging in is about the only viable survival strategy. I think there should be one subterranean crop value 1-2 that's edible raw, cooked and brewable. Ah, OK, we have Sweet Pods. 

> Or whiskey. Think of Blackjack! (joke)
That's also made out of grain. But I won't argue.

> how about rice? Requires wet biomes and requires processing,
> but produces larger stacks of grain, kind of like quarry bushes.
Nah, maize is good. Besides, you removed quarry bushes to not have 4 plants -> 20 leaves -> 50 + roast, value 5k+, which is good, I think.

> Sweet pods can be eaten raw and are also processable into three mid value products
Ech, sorry if I miss the obvious or even am contradicting myself.

> > Found this: http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Cave_fungus
> The scarcity of Rage comes from two different rare ingredients, I am not sure how replacing the two with one will affect balance.
Don't replace 2 with one. In fact I think spotted mushrooms (Amanita?) and glowing mushrooms sound less generic than cave mushrooms.

> EDIT: How do ponies eat corn off the cob?
When it is still young, the seeds are quite soft. Ponies / horses have strong teeth and can just bite it off, kinda like humans eat cooked corn on the cob. The seed only get tough (like the ones used for popcorn) when they get older and dry.

> > Assorted gardening data
> I am not sure how to make use of that.
I don't think you even could until DF replaces the current crop system with something a lot more accurate. Pumpkins are pretty amazing if you have the soil for them, though. I'm not asking that you add them to this mod (they like pretty good soil after all), they're just what I'd focus on, if I needed to grow my own food for the winter. 

> Also, I have determined the cause of turrets not shooting stuff, it is due to their [IMMOBILE] tag.
Huh? But they need to stay stationary where pastured. And they were using their material emissions just fine in previous versions. What is the fix, then?

[UnicodingUnicorn]

> I never had any issue with horseshoes. Ponies die fast and I just recycle clothes. Besides, bronze security horseshoes are easy to make.
I remember someone having problems with 1 bar = 2 horseshoes

> spotted mushrooms (Amanita?) and glowing mushrooms
I chose the descriptions based purely on the strange mushrooms you probably should not eat cliche

> Nah, maize is good.
The problem is that it is directly superior to cacti. How about making it [WET] only while cacti can be [WET] and [DRY]?

> And they were using their material emissions just fine in previous versions.
I think it is something to do with gaits replacing speed, like the creature only can do an action when it is affected by that gait.
> What is the fix, then? 
There is probably a gait that relates to doing things while standing still, but I am having so much fun playing wastelanders vs Unity vs Steel Rangers in the object testing arena now to find out.

And good news, Deon has given permission for me to use the cotton and corn in his mod.

[Maklak]

> The problem is that it is directly superior to cacti. How about making it [WET] only while cacti can be [WET] and [DRY]?
Some plants are better than others in vanilla too. Besides, cactus has food value 3 and can be pressed into buckets of water. Either way, I don't have a problem, but having 1 solid staple crop for food and drink would be useful.

> Turrets.
Well, someone will figure it out. Masterwork has turrets too, so may be worth checking.

[UnicodingUnicorn]

> Some plants are better than others in vanilla too. Besides, cactus has food value 3 and can be pressed into buckets of water. Either way, I don't have a problem, but having 1 solid staple crop for food and drink would be useful.
So players would still have a reason to plant barrel cacti, okay.

> Well, someone will figure it out. Masterwork has turrets too, so may be worth checking.
Okay, hopefully I can upload an updated version tomorrow. Do you know if Putnam has updated his itemSyndrome script to .40 yet?
Seriously, pitting 30 unarmed Unity of various colours against 30 wastelanders of varying equipment is fun and totally uneducational.

[Deon]

Masterwork turrets are IMMOBILE. In the new version immobile creatures are useless. Let's hope Toady fixes it.

[UnicodingUnicorn]

> Masterwork turrets are IMMOBILE. In the new version immobile creatures are useless. Let's hope Toady fixes it.
Wow, thanks for saving my time. Meh, in this version turrets will be meat/metal shields that you hope whatever eldritch abomination of the apocalypse chooses to slaughter rather than your militia.
Alternatively, temporarily remove [IMMOBILE] and hope players do not abuse moving turrets.

Now that turrets are confirmed broken, I am moving onto plants. DFHack seems to be sorta working, though I need to find and install itemSyndrome. Expect an upload by two days time. I will be using plants as they were described/discussed in the previous posts.

[Deon]

There's an easy workaround: just give turrets chassis and make them move very slowly. Then people will have to pasture them anyway because they won't be usable as patrol creatures otherwise.

[UnicodingUnicorn]

I think the turret's firing speed is directly related to its speed, that's why minigun turrets are much faster than normal turrets, but I'll give it a shot, thanks.