> Salvage as the only way to get stuff.
I still disagree and I'll try to explain how I see this.
Humans are lazy and will almost always settle for "good enough". For example with high transport costs (the globalisation that we have now pretty much works only because bulk transport is cheap) local materials will have strong advantage over imports. Unless it is a bad idea for some reason, a house in a forest will be built out of wood, a house in the mountains out of stone and a house in the sky out of clouds. (That was a joke.)
Imagine you're one out of very few survivors in a big city, with no prospects of immigration. In that environment salvaging would be much more efficient that producing new stuff. As the resources dwindle, the focus of scavengers would shift from looking for exactly what they want to adapting what they can find.
Fallout is at about this stage; there are still some places worth salvaging, but most towns have been picked clean and any communities there are, have to provide and produce for themselves. Even in big cities that still have some ruins worth looting and "prospectors", there is also some production going on.
Third world countries are a good analogy to "post-apocalyptic world with salvage". They have governments and megaprojects and so on, but for the most part people fend for themselves. Some of them sort through trash from richer countries and reuse and adapt what they can. They also have their own agriculture and usually export some cash crops. (Note that this is a very inaccurate description).
Rich countries do have their scrappers, but for most city dwellers providing for themselves is more efficient by getting a job.
Gun Runners in Fallout were a gang who found a weapons factory with all kinds of plans. They started producing weapons, then selling them and eventually decided that it was more profitable than raiding.
While Tepony Tower, Steel Rangers and the Enclave technically count as factions who rely on constantly patching up old relics, there was some industry going for them as well. In FoE there was also a place that exported water purifiers.
In Fallout 2 there were all sorts of production going on. One town had Uranium mine, one exported drugs (mostly jet) and alcohol, the village that your character starts in produces food, gecko hides and healing powder and other places have agriculture, production, trade, salvaging and whatever combination of these seems to work best for them.
In Fallout 3 there is a steel mill in Pitsburg.
New Vegas is something of an oddity, because it's economy is based primarily on gambling at The Strip. The income from it trickles down to the surrounding communities who provide various services. NCR is mostly there to secure clean water and electric power for itself and it's soldiers and other personnel spend money in New Vegas, but there are also farms and factories (and I'm not talking about the robot-infested ones).
* NCR Sharecropper farm close to camp Mc Carren produces food for the soldiers and enough surplus for trade.
* There is a smaller community farm, north of The Strip.
* Quarry Junction is a cement mine / factory, temporarily disabled by a Deathclaw family.
* Powder Gangers were prisoners and workers building a rail-road and possibly mines.
* There are the Gun Runners, who make their weapons and ammunition locally.
* Work and Reloading benches are scattered everywhere, indicating that every community has some kind of workshop to produce / adapt what they can and need.
* Great Khans make and export drugs, but otherwise are a tribal people, having crops, hunting and all.
* Jacobstown (The super mutant town) herds bighorners and exports meat. Presumably also leather, milk and cheese.
* Boomers rely on the army cache they found, but they estimate it will only last them about 5 years and I think they have a biofuel refinery and a workshop.
* You can help the Followers of The Apocalypse by making them help produce alcohol for a bar in exchange for some medicinal supplies.
There are "prospectors" too, but they are only a part of the economy, not the base of it.
In general people/ponies adapt in Fallout/FoE do whatever works for them.
Agriculture under the could cover is inefficient, but it is definitely going on in all the Fallout games I played, in FoE and in Project horizons.
Even Raiders and Gangers aren't in "Stone Age". Their settlements at the very least forge metal weapons for them.
Even Ditzy Doo, while relying on salvage to a great extent, had a workshop and produced things like armour. Not from ore of course, but she didn't have to.
> Think in general terms. Does every community in the wasteland live from uranium mining? Has every citizen in the NCR all new shine concrete houses?
No and no. They get by however they can. NCR is a relatively nice place, but it's houses are mostly made out of whatever is locally available, be it rubble, planks or whatever.
> But the following is true, most of the population live from scavenging and not from the fruits of production.
Hard to say really. Salvaging is definitely a part of it, but so is production, adapting and trade.
I'm not saying that everything was rebuilt and salvaging as well as repairing old relics are negligible compared to production, just that rebuilding is slowly going on.
> [Red Eye] is not the rule but the exception. The oddity in the survey data.
Sort of. He decided that rebuilding was too slow with peaceful methods (NCR-style) and went about doing it as fast as possible, while fending off powerful forces such as Steel Rangers. Much of his resources were dedicated to arming up, but that was a necessity. Of course the fastest way to do kick-start the industry was by sacrificing the lives of tens of thousands of slaves, which gave him a bad reputation, but overall he had the right idea and his plan would work.
> Of course he counts if I look at the wasteland from some removed objective point, but from the average citizen's viewpoint he is just a threat of slavery, and not the shining example of sharing wealth around the wasteland.
Well, if New Appleloosa is any indication, the threat is there, but he is also considered a good trading partner and some sort of fanatic.
> His faction in Philidelphia has every kind of industry available, but the only products leaving the compound are equipment for slavers.
Some of industrial output of Fillydelphia had to pay for all those slaves, so he has exports, but most production was spent on megaprojects, such as the Everfree Farms, the Schools, the Army and the Cathedral.
> My biggest concern at that moment was chemistry. Adding a badly implemented feature, is like adding none. (by bad i mean one i won't use because of the reasons i listed two posts before.) So i said something before it happened.
I'd say adding a badly implemented feature can be worse than not adding it at all, if it changes the game too much in some wrong direction. From what I've seen so far, no worries. It looks like chemistry is going to be inefficient and not really change much.
> Getting rid of the wildlife is as easy as putting down a cage trap.
I need hundreds of tiles of walls to make this method work... Ah, I finally realised why my animal stockpiles are so inefficient. I need to add wheelbarrows to them. Gah!
> Look here is what happens in most of my stables:
That's very different from my experience.
> By the end of first year food and booze production has been secured, and there is nothing to do with it for the rest of the game.
For the first year or two I have occasional food and drink shortages, but nothing major and is no one outside of hospital dies of thirst or starvation, I just sometimes have to slaughter animals of gather plants. After that I can export food by the truckload. I get enough alcohol, but it's not abundant. Any surplus is also useful for biofuel and coke. Lavish meals are always my main export, but I might switch to bronze serrated disks or maybe jumpsuits eventually.
> The core of the military is already in training and they are almost fully equipped.
My military tends to get wounded and die, but they do get decent equipment eventually.
> The stable have been fully mined out, and the miners have nothing to do anymore.
I never stop mining before FPS death, so your fort designs must be much more compact. I tend to have lots of unused space, though. Surprisingly, I also sometimes run out of stone, which is really easy with rock grinding.
> I can bring all the necessary gems at embark to have all the apprentice spells in the game, (or just grind a hundred rocks) and by the end of the second year most of my unicorns have already learned them.
I haven't though about bringing gems on embark, even after the reactions to un-polish them were added. Ponies learning spells are still problematic for me and require a lot of attention. It's probably easier now with gem trading, but before it was possible, Ponderplanned barely got any spellcasters.
Well, maybe you're just better at playing this game then me and most of the rest of us. The consensus is that despite all the stuff from salvage, it is still harder than Vanilla. As Splint mentioned, if you get bored, you can try an eviller, savager region or some self-imposed challenges.
For me personally the difficulty is a bit on the challenging side of things. I'm having most fun when my Stable thrives despite all the attacks. There is also much to do in this mod with late-game industries and I barely ever got there.
> I am thinking about removing fish however…they don’t really make much sense and shouldn’t even be edible given the supposedly irradiated rivers they thrive in.
> There are fish in Project Horizons, and if i remember correctly they are not even that bad.
I don't fish, so I don't know, but I think Replica likes them. In any case, fishing is purely optional. I would have to actually fish for a while and see how efficient it is, to be able to say if removing it makes sense or not.
> Removing metal mining
I've noticed the reduced metal and gem abundance and I'm against nerfing this further. On most embarks you'll only get copper anyway, which just helps a bit to save some scrap on bronze and brass production. Getting iron is pretty rare, but to me is a welcome bonus when it happens.
> The water fountain does provide a wasteland water drink that’s stored in barrels.
Wait, I can actually build a fountain and biofuel refinery close together, add a drink and barrel stockpile and break biofuel and coke production? Good to know, but I don't think I'll go that far.
> The whole point of developing advanced technologies is to face the threat posed by the Rangers and Unity
The joke here is that Unity is immune to all spells, even by Magic Masters (well, except Time Dilatation, Shield and other self buffs).
Some of the things that could be made from plastic are wheelbarrows, buckets, bins and barrels. I just never have enough wood. Of course metal buckets from salvage and the increased efficiency of plywood do help.
This is pretty awesome, running dfhack scripts from evaporating rocks from workshops:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124014.msg4110171#msg4110171
As to hoof accesorries, pipbucks and stealthbucks are the only things that come to my mind. Well, maybe jewellery that makes ponies "look pretty" by raising their social skills, but who would want tat anyway, especially in the military? Canterlot transmitters would just turn their users intu siucide bombers. Drug autoinjectors could work.
My advice is that you don't go overboard with this, just put in pipbucks and stealthbucks for now and move on to other things. If someone has any good ideas, go for them, but I would prefer a shield with a shield charm to a breacelet. Also, spell amulets would be better as "hats" rather than "socks".
> Maklak's spreadsheet is going to be enormous when we finally have the enclave (joke)
I have a spreadsheet? I dislike spreadsheets.
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Topic: Fallout: Equestria (v0.30c) Pinkie Pie is Watching (Read 507330 times)