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[Ohlawdy]

Every math class since the 5th grade I have had a C or lower. My senior high I was taking pre-calculus and 1st semester got a straight 60% and 2nd semester flat out failed with something like 46%. A lot of people failed but that isn't the point. I did well in every other class including getting a 98% in physics and understood everything perfectly. My GPA without math would be about 3.8. Now it is my first year in college, I did some studying, placed into pre-calculus again. From the looks of it, it is almost guaranteed I am going to fail the class.
So far I have failed every test except for one where I got a 60%. Any homework that we have done I did and got every problem right. I try to study at least an hour a day and do practice problems, I go to a study group, and I attend class every day. There are 2 tests left in the quarter and I need a 70% to pass the class. I have my doubts that there is any possible way I could pass. To my knowledge this class isn't curved at all. I am meeting with my professor again to discuss what to do and talking to my adviser about what I can do. Either way, next quarter I am taking a "pseudo-class" where I can get individualized help. It takes me quite awhile before I can understand a concept or how to do something in math so I think getting more help will, well, help. Even with the studying after class and massive studying sessions right before a class (about 6 hours a day for 3 days) I still can't seem to do well with tests and I stumble with math.

I don't know whether it is because I am not understanding the concepts in math well enough or whether I unknowingly have test anxiety in math classes. It is usually the multi-part problems that trip me up because I start mixing methods, forget one detail to a method that throws off all my answers.

Has anyone every been in a similar situation? What did you do? What can I do? Am I going to have to accept I am really damn terrible at math?

[MetalSlimeHunt]

It sounds like you have either extreme test anxiety or a mathematical learning disability. I'm bad at math, but nothing like what you've said. If I studied an hour every day I could get a 100% on my math tests, I just don't because it literally bores me to sleep.

[pisskop]

In high school onwards, my math is almost my weakest subject.  I love the concept s in physics, but the math kills me.

Ive learned to view math as as sets of rules, and to focus on the simplist meath possible.  if - then.  I can do this to this and get this.  Kinda like an RPG, if you will.

If I have a high sneak, I should not put on loud heavy armor, instead use lightweight armor.  If I have low health, I should rest OR I should eat/drink/mage.  The options are rules, and I can manipulate my character (the equation, matrix, w.e.) with these rules.  I hope it makes sense...

[Ohlawdy]

Part of me wants to say test anxiety because I do perfectly fine in math related classes such as physics and chemistry and all the programming I have done (then again none of that high-level).
But at the same time the learning disability is a possibility. I have trouble sometimes reading analogue clocks, doing math in my head is hard and even 7+4 can trip me up (I have to manually count from 7). I also have a lot of difficulty measuring distances in my head and saying "That is about 5 feet long". When someone says "I have a rod 2 feet long." I have trouble visualizing how long that really is.
When I was seeing a psychiatrist and they were doing some exams, even they said I might want to get checked for a math learning disability. But I don't want to jump the gun.

[Telgin]

Just a quick glance at Wikipedia seems to indicate to me that you might have dyscalculia.  If that's the case then professional treatment is probably the best course of action.

Of course, there's the obligatory I Am Not A Doctor.

[ed boy]

Also, if there are any specific problems or concepts that are particularly difficult, don't hesitate to post them here. We have a math help thread (two, even) for a reason.

[LordBucket]

Has anyone every been in a similar situation? What did you do?
What can I do? Am I going to have to accept I am really damn terrible at math?

I've tutored for people who are "bad at math." My experience has generally been that they've simply had awful teachers who taught them silly ways of thinking and focused on memorizing step-by-step processes rather than helping them to understand what they were actually doing.

For example, one girl I tutored it turned out that her father was "helping" her do he math homework, by her asking what the answers were, him telling her to try it on her own, her responding by wildly guessing random numbers, then him responding no, and telling her the answer...which she then wrote down.

Consequently the girl was unable to do basic arithmetic.

In an hour I was able to teach her not only to do it, but how to do it without pencil and paper and without counting on her fingers. Checked back a week later, and the girl had forgotten because she'd gone right back to simply asking her father for all the answers. That girl will probably grow up to bad at math her entire life because she's building on a weak foundation, and she's learning that she doesn't have to understand anything, she just has to complain that it's difficult and answers will be handed to her.

My advice is to find a competent tutor.

massive studying sessions right before a class (about 6 hours a day for 3 days)
I still can't seem to do well with tests

General tip, not unique to math: don't study immediately before a test, or the night before. If you have a big test Thursday, Tuesday is your last night to study. Do nothing on Wednesday. The sleep cycle is an important part of the learning process, and you may be sabotaging yourself by trying to do a test during the wrong part of the learning cycle.

Think of it this way: would you spend an hour in the gym immediately before running a marathon? Of course not. If you did you'd already have exhausted muscles before you started. Your brain works similarly. Give it time to rest before using it.

I start mixing methods, forget one detail to a method that throws off all my answers.

General tip: don't become too attached to any particular method. Math is not like following  recipe. the goal is to find correct answers. The method you use to reach them is not important. If you find something that works for you...use it. It's more important to understand than it is to memorize and follow a particular method. And once you do understand, there are generally lots of totally valid ways to solve a problem.

I've found that some teachers don't understand this. Find a tutor who does.

[Neonivek]

Math is hard to learn mostly because learning it is very illogical.

Other subjects have easy cause and effect lines to go along but when you switch to math everything like that is thrown out the window.

Add in the extreme amounts of memorisation and translating something to an equasion or answering something easy to answer with a difficult to express equasion adds to this difficulty.

[Imp]

My math trouble seems to come from a mild form of dyscalculia combined with some downright odd ways of processing information related to space and 'complicated' math.  I'm fine and fast and strong with addition/subtraction, even pretty big numbers.  Dyslexia runs in my family and my mom was an adult before she learned how to deal with letters in a way that let her really read them.  I'm not a dyslexic but there's something very odd about how I process words and numbers.  My mom was terrified that I'd be unable to read like she struggled with, so my father gave me very intensive home schooling about phonics and how to read starting when I was beginning to talk.  I entered kindergarden reading at around 5th grade level.

However I still cannot spell words aloud if the word's more than 4-5 letters long.  I say the first 3 letters without a problem, but I am struggling by the 4th letter.  I can spell the word right if I can write it.  I can recognize written misspelled words at a glance.  I have to slow down tremendously to say, or even clearly 'see' the letters that make words.  I -can- write them.  I can't tell you -how- I write them.  They have a texture, almost synesthesia.  But it is NOT verbal.  And not visual.  Touch based more than anything.  And 'outside of words' is the clearest way I can describe it.  I think I might have had a lot of trouble if I'd not been given a very high degree of extra help early.

I had a lot of trouble with the times tables.  Some of the numbers 'made sense', they were clear and predictable and in focus to me.  Others were not, and actually still are not.  11 and 7 are really bad.  Six sometimes hides with 7 and sometimes stands clear and far from 7 (I can see it when it stands clear).  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 8, and 10 are really good for me.  9's very iffy.  Treating 9 like it was 10, do the problem, then subtract 1 for each 10 in the problem (like 9x8; pretend 10x8 - 8, cause that's 8 10s) works for me reliably, and makes sense.  Most of the other ways to remember and 'understand' 9x8 feel nonsensical and almost impossible to remember accurately - even straight memorization.  I blame the 8 and what it does in my head.

I am 100% accurate with up and down, but only about 70% accurate with right and left.  I used to be unable to tell which direction was what (east for example) without a VERY CLEAR clue (sunrise would be great).  I -love- games, and discovered MUDS when I was about 28.  They use a VERY large coordinate grid system with a LOT of NSEW directions (and sometimes some up/down and diagonal movement) and the game patiently rewards/punishes you through gameplay as you properly or improperly move around, spamming directions as fast and accurately as you can while being chased or chasing something, for instance.  I struggled for a few months, then suddenly 'got it' and became quite fast at navigating in a MUD.... then a bit later realized, whoa.  That way's north!  Got a lot easier for me to orientate driving too, to be able to both turn around and backtrack as well as attempt to take a novel route to a familiar destination - two things I used to feel almost sick trying to do.  My perception of the entire world can spin, if I 'lose track of where', which I used to do a LOT.  My mind could only hold 1, very rarely 2 'markers' and I coordinated myself by relation to that single point, which I very easily lost track of, even while looking at.  Now I have a sense of space that's totally different from before, and I attribute that to struggling 'endlessly' in those crazy text games for so many hours, with the game as a very patient and very motivating teacher that instantly rewarded and punished correct and wrong actions as fast as I could make them.

I'm currently in first semester of college calculus.  The best thing that ever happened to my math skills was a teacher who thought very similarly to how I do.  Different teachers explain things differently, there's various learning and thinking styles.  I got to have two semesters with a teacher who explained math almost exactly the way I think, so I didn't have to wonder and try to 'translate' what the teacher was saying into how I think.  I would urge you to seek a similar math teacher or tutor.  Interview a few, look for tutors/teachers who themselves had trouble or difference with math - especially if that difference resonates with you.  Those people may be best able to explain in a way that makes sense to your specific view of the world.

One great way to find such a person is to ask them to explain part of math to you that you already understand.  If how they explain it is almost exactly the way -you- would explain it, and makes nearly perfect sense to you, then how they are going to explain stuff you don't understand yet is likely to be very close to how you think and thus far easier to understand than if you ALSO have to translate it into 'you' language in your head.

[anzki4]

Math is hard to learn mostly because learning it is very illogical.

Other subjects have easy cause and effect lines to go along but when you switch to math everything like that is thrown out the window.

Add in the extreme amounts of memorisation and translating something to an equasion or answering something easy to answer with a difficult to express equasion adds to this difficulty.

It's not that math is illogical, because it isn't. It is the stupid way it's taught. At least here it's taught primarily through memorization, not understanding, at least on lower levels of education.

For example we were never taught where does Pythagorean theorem come from or how it actually works. We were just taught the equation. If you just look the Wikipedia page; the first picture on the right and the text under it, the whole thing makes a whole lot more sense. Why it wasn't taught that way in the first place is just pure fucking stupidity.

Incidentally, I also got a lot more interested in math when I learned some of these type of things from the interwebs. I was always quite good at maths, but I hated it before discovering the logic behind it. It's pretty sad that I had to learn it on my own. It's almost like schools are trying their best to make math as boring as possible.

[Muz]

Yeah, math is actually very badly taught. I talk to a few math academics. Most of them say the core problem is that in school, they teach you to do tricks, rather than actually do anything mathematical.

• You shouldn't be doing math inside your head, aside from single digit arithmetic.
• You shouldn't memorize any formulas (unless you're doing something like statistics). Everything should be derived.

If your problem is with one of the above, chances are you're not doing math. You're just doing some party tricks they teach you in school.

Math is literally the most logical subject in the world. If it doesn't make sense, it's being taught wrong. But it's a really, really long chain of logic. If you missed out on some foundations, you'll have trouble with things that it's based on. Like people who don't know how division works won't be able to do fractions.

Honestly, very few people have a "learning disability" with math. Even school math is like a language. If you use it enough, you'll learn it. If you're smart enough to read this, you can learn some arithmetic. And hell, I'm dyslexic. The worst thing you can do is "accept that you're bad at it."

[Imp]

Math is literally the most logical subject in the world. If it doesn't make sense, it's being taught wrong.

But different people do learn differently.  I've been in class after class where different people (sometimes me!) totally got what was being taught easily and quickly, and a lot of others in the class were struggling.  That math teacher who explained things 'the way I think' - much of the class considered him a really bad teacher.  He was -awesome- for me though.  And I've watched a lot of students 'get it' in classes that I was struggling like crazy.

I do agree that a lot of math is in how it's taught - but I shy back from the idea that if it doesn't make sense it's being taught wrong, because I don't believe that any one person should make that choice for more than themself.  We do not all learn the same way - we as a whole need our right way of being taught, not just a single 'right way' for it to be taught.

[Patchouli]

For example we were never taught where does Pythagorean theorem come from or how it actually works. We were just taught the equation. If you just look the Wikipedia page; the first picture on the right and the text under it, the whole thing makes a whole lot more sense. Why it wasn't taught that way in the first place is just pure fucking stupidity.

Where I'm from, the teachers have always explained the Pythagorean Theorem in terms of area, with that top picture. I didn't understand it until college though.

There's a ton of graphical proofs of the Pythagorean Theorem, but only a handful are obvious to me.

http://www.cut-the-knot.org/pythagoras/index.shtml

I best understood it with Proof #9, while a friend had an easier time with #2. It would be nice if it was so, but it's just difficult to teach a concept to a group of 20 people in a way that everyone would understand, in the time limit given. Most teachers and professors are willing to explain it to you in a 1-on-1 environment though. Try spending some time with professors during their office hours, most of the ones I've had were thrilled to explain where some idea comes from, or why you do a certain step. Heck, some professors actually do show where equations come from and how it's derived during class, but there's just not enough time in class for me to make sense of it, so I have to meet them again later anyway.

Plus, for some classes, all you really need are the basics. For example, in basic physics, (1/2)m(v^2)=kinetic energy. If you want to know where it came from you need to understand some basic calculus. I don't think there should be an expectation for everyone to take calculus, not because it isn't useful for everyone, but the amount of usefulness is pretty varying depending on what you want to do. In cases where it's not too useful, I think memorizable formulas are fine. It just isn't feasible to cover all the material otherwise. The further you go into a field, the more in-depth you'll go into the mathematics that are most relevant to you.

The important thing at lower levels is to introduce the concept, so that later, you can go "Oh, I sort of remember that, I don't know why it works though".

[Muz]

I'm skeptical with the whole theory about people thinking differently. Everyone is built with the same brain. It's more like you spend your early years developing different "aptitudes" to everyone else.

It's more like math is buried under tons and tons and tons of jargon and notation. And some people are just unfamiliar with different kinds of jargon. Eventually you reach a stage where you say "I'm no good at this," and it becomes a self-defeating prophecy.

You should be able to learn and understand it like anything else - history, English, etc… by reading it one sentence at a time. You shouldn't really be doing it over and over again until it sticks... that's kind of a dumb quick way to pretend to be good at anything, but it works, it gives good test results, so it's become the de facto method of teaching math in schools.

The link Patchouli gave is a good demonstration. It's covered all over the place with jargon. A good teacher will explain and demonstrate all that jargon properly. Some people have no difficulty with some of the jargon because they know what it means. I think "doing things in your head" is ultimately the worst advice any math teacher has ever given, and too many of them give it in the early years of school. You should probably learn to read it right out of a proper textbook. That's how I learned a lot of math, worked better than most teachers.

[Azated]

-snippiteh-

I agree with some of that, but two major points stick out to me.


Personally, I can't do math at all if I have to write it down. I see it as a waste of time and energy, along with adding the unnecessary third party of pen and paper. I discovered a long time ago that this was because I think visually. It's a little difficult to describe, but the old saying 'a picture says a thousand words' is a pretty close estimation.

Because I think in images, writing mathematical equations in an attempt to explain my working is totally pointless. It always ends in a jumbled mess of letters and numbers. It's like gazing over a beautiful lake with a rainbow in the sky and unicorns frolicking in the bushes, and then trying to explain to a blind person what you're seeing.


I have no trouble with math now. In school, I barely graded high enough to pass my exams. I remember thinking to myself, "It's the right bloody answer! Does it really matter that I didn't do it your way?". Once I realized that the methods they were teaching me were total crap and served no purpose whatsoever in my mind, I started getting full marks.


So, everyone does think differently. Schools teach using a broad-spectrum method designed for the majority. Some people can't think the way everyone else does. Once you learn how your brain works, you'll have no trouble with complex equations. Just pay attention to how you perceive the world and it'll come to you.