Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Damiac]

I don't see much of a problem with the UI when you take into account accessory programs like Dwarf Therapist. / snip / like complaning about the color of the plate at a fancy restaurant.

Dwarf Therapist takes one of the most cumbersome parts of the UI and replaces it with a different UI. You're right, once the problematic parts have been isolated and completely replaced, the UI won't be problematic anymore! Dwarf Therapist is a pretty great demo of how mouse support and optimized information displaying can take a task like, say, sorting a group of ten incoming migrants into professions by enabling and disabling labors, which takes a couple hundred keystrokes and a good bit of memory, and turn it into ten or fifteen clicks and a couple of presses of the shift key, with no use of mental effort at all.

Therapist has some bonus functions like showing you your dwarves' stats in numerical form, but I think the features that make it so popular are, by far, the fact that you can see all of your dwarves' skills and labors on one page and the fact that you can assign and unassign labors to multiple dwarves on one page. That is nothing except a rearrangement of info displays and controls which are already present in the game. And it's such a superior rearrangement, that tons of players are willing to tab out to use it, even though having to tab out to use it is a pretty problematic choice for a UI component.

I tried to ask earlier in the thread but I am unanswered. Maybe this means my questions are dumb and asinine, but I ask anyways because I am really really curious. Where does this attitude come from, that the UI is fine as it is? Why does anyone feel compelled to defend a UI that its designer refers to as 'shitty?' Can't we hope for the best, most intuitive, most awesome interface plausible, and therefore be reasonably critical towards the way the UI is now, regardless of the extent to which any of us have learned to make it work for us?

Edit to add this. My actual point is, at some point Toady will do a UI overhaul, and when that time comes it would be kind of cool if people would be brutally critical towards the UI. Maybe then we'll get a much better one. I trust Toady to develop a great game regardless of the community, he surely seems like that kind of cowboy developer, but none of his published game projects have finished, good-as-can-be UIs, so I guess DF's going to be his first? Yeah, please don't tell him "it's fine as it is" because you didn't mind spending several days to a week learning it. It would still be better if it were so intuitive you could just look at it and dive in!

This.  You can say making the UI better will somehow destroy the game, but look at Therapist.  It takes the cumbersome, annoying, unintuitive labor of assigning migrants jobs through an interface with no cursor memory and no multi-dwarf assignment support, and instead gives you a nice spreadsheet, which can be arranged however you like.  It takes away absolutely zero functionality, and makes the game that much more enjoyable to play.  It is a demonstration that a simple, easy to use interface only allows greater complexity for the game itself.

Think about what a few small things like that could do to DF.  Little improvements like cursor memory in menus and on the main screen would go a long way toward reducing frustration.  Allowing the mouse to be used to select tiles or scroll through menu options faster.  Things that are already so close to being in the game.  But if everyone says "It's fine as is", or even worse, that it will somehow make the game worse, we're less likely to see improvements like that.

Just take a look through the suggestions forum.  There are plenty of suggestions having to do with reducing the various cumbersome and annoying interface issues, and those threads are full of people saying that making the game more accessible (as in, easier to understand and control) somehow would take away from the game itself.  Thus, the title of this thread, itself a parody of what seems to be the community's idea of what dwarf fortress is.  An already complex game, hidden behind an unnecessarily obtuse interface.  I want challenge from the game itself.  I don't want the challenge to be that I can't manage to assign another 50 dwarves labors, because my hands hurt too much from the carpal tunnel the game has given me.

And yeah, the game is awesome.  That only makes it that much more frustrating to have to fight through the UI.  It unnecessarily turns people away, and I get the impression that some of the community is happy about that. 

[Leatra]

I wish we had something like the Dwarf Therapist to set up our military.

[Damiac]

I wish we had something like the Dwarf Therapist to set up our military.

That would be pretty handy.  Even with Therapist I have to slog through the list of dwarves, match up the names, and then assign my desired military members.  At least usually the new migrants are at the bottom of the list for military assignments.

Another downside of that is I accidentally discover vampires that way, since their names don't match up in therapist.  I say downside because it removes all mystery of who is a vampire, defeating an intended feature.  Some might consider that a good thing.

[Leatra]

Yeah, I don't like it when therapist shows all the vampires too. It makes things too easy.

[Deathworks]

Dear Kuki,

I tried to ask earlier in the thread but I am unanswered. Maybe this means my questions are dumb and asinine, but I ask anyways because I am really really curious. Where does this attitude come from, that the UI is fine as it is? Why does anyone feel compelled to defend a UI that its designer refers to as 'shitty?' Can't we hope for the best, most intuitive, most awesome interface plausible, and therefore be reasonably critical towards the way the UI is now, regardless of the extent to which any of us have learned to make it work for us?

I think you are misunderstanding something here. Preferences and perceptions are really different, and something that seems unappealing to some people may be perfectly well for others. Therefore, not everyone finds the interface counter-intuitive, there are people - like me - who really find the interface easy to use and appropriate for the way they want to play the game. For those people - like me - this interface is really a good interface the way it is. Of course, that does not mean that there could not be any improvements, but those are more of a very minor nature.

I speak in favor of the interface not because of any abstract attitude, but because I enjoy playing the game using this interface. And in that regard, it is not important what Toady One thinks about the interface - these are my impressions and my feelings.

And allow me to stress - I am not a masochist. I play the game as a simulation where I can enjoy the stories and events that occur within the fortress and I do not need or want any difficult challenges (I am a NO INVADERS type ... ). The current user interface is really the easiest approach to the game for me I can think of.

Yours,
Deathworks

[kuki]

Dear Deathworks,

For those people - like me - this interface is really a good interface the way it is. Of course, that does not mean that there could not be any improvements, but those are more of a very minor nature.

The current user interface is really the easiest approach to the game for me I can think of.

I guess I can see where you are coming from, and maybe where I'm misreading peoples' intentions. If it really is the easiest approach you can think of, then it would surely be wrong of me to fault you for approving of it aloud.

Can I ask your opinion on Dwarf Therapist, then? Do you use it? If not, have you tried it? If you've tried it and you prefer the default, non-graphical layout for viewing and assigning labors, what is it about the default layout you prefer?

Thanks!

[Deathworks]

Dear Kuki,

I have to admit that I have not tried Dwarf Therapist. I have not seen the need for it, and I am also rather worried about game stability as I have had a lot of nasty experiences with world gen crashes (there seem to be some that corrupt something in the game proper itself requiring me to replace the core files). Thus, I would rather not use any outside tools unless they are absolutely necessary for me.

I also may need to explain that I preferring to play small-scale. I usually set pop cap to 7 and simply rely on the first migrant wave(s) and births to slowly expand my population. I am interested in seeing the dwarves develop relationships, develop habits, and I also like to look at the engravings and the artifacts they create. Although I have to admit that my current focus on the minecart system has made me neglect those latter parts.

So, my game experience is more something on the personal, small-scale level and also one where taking things slowly and easy is normal.

Yours,
Deathworks

[werty892]

Honestly, I have climbed and scaled the learning cliff of DF's interface and the game, and I really have to say, WHY NOT? Why not make the interface smoother? Why not Make this game more intuitive. Why not make it so anybody can just sit down and play without reading the wiki? What is this elitist DF attitude that prevents you from accepting any simplification? If instead of pressing b-c, I could click twice in the menu, then click to place the chairs, I would do that. If the list were organized alphabetically, then it would be so much easier to find how to build, say a magma forge for a noob, then having to scan through the entire list because it is not organized. Seriously guys, if JUST mouse scrolling and menu usage was addressed, think about how much more accessible this game would be to new people! Most people I recommend DF to say they cant figure out what the hell they have to do in the start. This is because of 1, the graphics, (Which I don't want to change, they are perfectly fine as they are, and we need to keep some kind of 11 year old filter in our game) But, really. think about it. If you could go on the military screen and set up a squad in a MINUTE, WOULD YOU NOT LIKE IT? If you could get a bunch of recruits sparing in 30 seconds, would you not like it? If you could click several times instead of searching for what key you have to press to build something, would you not like it? Just asking, what is this elitist attitude towards changing the interface? What prevents you from making this game's interface not a barrier to people playing it?

[therahedwig]

Actually, DFs interface has been improving?
Sure, there's still no intergrated therapist, and there's still no unification of keys, but we did get toggling a whole section of the job list with shift+enter and all the screens with lists in them now resize with the window. There was also some extra stuff in the embark screens I recall, but I don't remember the specifics.

Furthermore, check out how nice the health screen is. Doesn't that remind you of therapist?
The Military screen is also pretty awesome, the fact that everything military related is bugged, not so much. (Technically, you should be able to set up a squad or two and use the scedules and uniforms to automate them. Unfortunately dwarves can't dress themselves, so uniforms are bugged, training is bugged as well, because it's near impossible to get them to actually spar(also, uniform buggyness: switching weapons) and the patrol-related thoughts are bugged, sending your dwarves into insanity.)
Oh, and the bee-industry is pretty much automatic. Clay was pretty well done as well(though it'll probly get a revamp). Really, it's mostly the old stuff(trade screen, to name an example) that is horrible, and supposedly a lot of old stuff will get revamped, so hopefully the UI alongside it(now only hope it won't be so buggy as the military screen).

My point: Toady does care about the interface, and has been working on it, it just takes very low priority to everything else. And I guess that knowledge is what pacifies long time players.

I actually am of the opinion it's the lack of guidance that makes DF so difficult to begin with. But that's an UI matter as well, isn't it?

[Viking]

Posting to follow this.

[Dyret]

Just asking, what is this elitist attitude towards changing the interface?

I don't think we actually have one of those here. I certainly haven't seen it in this thread.

The guys OP was referring to were probably joking. Either that or just fatally retarded.

[AutomataKittay]

Just asking, what is this elitist attitude towards changing the interface?

I don't think we actually have one of those here. I certainly haven't seen it in this thread.

The guys OP was referring to were probably joking. Either that or just fatally retarded.

I have, but it's pretty rare, and years ago

My point: Toady does care about the interface, and has been working on it, it just takes very low priority to everything else. And I guess that knowledge is what pacifies long time players.

I actually am of the opinion it's the lack of guidance that makes DF so difficult to begin with. But that's an UI matter as well, isn't it?

Yeah, my line of thought is there're just too much thing to do without knowing what to do. Tutorial is UI matter to me, since past a certain level of complexity, it's virtually needed to have something to teach how to use it, or how things are connected to other things.

Magmawiki does it well enough for me, so does the forum, but it's not inside the game, where people just starting out needs it the most. I does enjoys this community and is glad that it's around to help anyone willing to ask

[Loud Whispers]

Well what's going on here-

...

Well this will take a while.

There are also a lot of threads where people say certain parts of the game are a major annoyance: IE assigning jobs to an army of migrants, or managing your food and barrel stocks.

1. Game is unfinished. Wait. As for food stocks, stone pots and the kitchen screen. Not hard.
2. Assign your migrants their jobs the moment they arrive on the screen one by one. Why the hell doesn't anyone do this? SERIOUSLY, WHY?

In other words, it seems to be a popular opinion that much of the "challenge" of DF is figuring out the difficult interface, and the more annoying menial tasks that have to be performed, like managing migrants.

Enough straw to make a scarecrow. The interface isn't difficult for the most part; it's like learning how to get through the streets of an old city. Once you know your way around you can choose the quickest routes. This difficulty comes from finding Fun.

They like that DF is difficult to learn and play, because it makes them feel special that they were able to learn it.

I AM SPECIAL SNOWFLAKE
LOOK HOW SPECIAL I AM
SO SNOWY
AND FLAKY
SPECIAL
THAT'S MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Overcoming boredom and frustration is (I hope) not the intended metagame of DF.

Well if you're getting bored in a sandbox, it's probably not for you.

So I'm gonna say something that will probably make a lot of people here mad: Being able to play dwarf fortress does not prove you are super intelligent.

I am now mad snowflake. I am not special now?

  It doesn't take amazing brainpower to learn and play this game.

I really hadn't noticed!

The game would be better if it were easier to play.

The game would also be better if it were finished.

The game of dwarf fortress is not where you press 'u', scroll through to find the dwarf who isn't doing anything, and assign him a job.

Indeed. You press (j), press (PGUP) and see a nice neat list of your Dwarves doing nothing. Like I said, old city. 2 buttons used. HOW SHOCKING INTERFACE IS BAAAAD.

  It is not where you get the dreaded message "A new wave of migrants has arrived", and in a time consuming and boring process

I enjoy this. I check their thoughts, their histories, their kills, what they wear, what they're skilled in and their relationships. One, by, one.

assign each one a job, with no way of referencing who has what job

Nicknames replace job titles.

-and what jobs have already been assigned, and which jobs are needed.

Units screen. It divides all the Dwarves by labour. Failing that, you have something called memory, it's very effective when coupled with trigger words - use nicknames. These are your Dwarves, not your peons to recklessly throw away to their deaths without science or remorse.

Now, make no mistake.  I love the depth of the game of dwarf fortress.

And apparently enjoy berating one of the nicest gaming communities around :|

The interface is simply a (necessary) barrier between the player and the game.

Except for everyone it's not to. And again, it's not a barrier to anyone who would enjoy the game in the first place. Roguelikes aren't mainstream for some reason. I wonder what effect that has on the arrival rate of new players...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

TLDR; Dwarf fortress is not a way to prove you are a more evolved gamer than someone who plays COD or WOW, or whatever other mainstream game is popular to hate on.  Dwarf Fortress is an amazingly deep and complex game, which stands perfectly well on its own two feet as a great game.  The interface need not be some form of hazing to seperate the "true gamers" from the dreaded "casuals".  Toady isn't making this masterpiece for gaming elitists to show off their e-peen.

I'm so hipster because my games are all in ASCII.
Oh and you confuse yourself, you won't find random bashing for games that actually hold merit. CoD has a terrible community and has skewed mainstream gaming to mean "BETTER GRAPHICS AND MORE IRON SIGHTS." Nowhere do you find Bay watchers suddenly saying they are the superior race or something.

Also, thank you Toady, for such an amazing game.  You are truly an inspiration.

And you are depressing.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

My argument would be this: you shouldn't feel like an intelligent pro gamer just because you mastered the challenging interface (and then breezed past the relatively easy gameplay underneath it), you should instead feel like an intelligent pro gamer because you mastered challenging gameplay (accessed through an easy, intuitive interface). The former is where we're at now, and I can't fault people for patting themselves on the back for mastering the admittedly difficult interface, but I feel like DF will be better off the more we move towards the latter.

Lurk more. Take the red pill. Get out of the rabbit hole Alice. You are disillusioned if this is what you think this community is.

And I don't see anyone negging people that uses Dwarf Therapist, which's used to help manage the swarms and check things out, other than the rare purists that thinks walling things out are cheating

Indeed! I've never used Therapist, never will, but I don't go rattling on about how it's sinful against the floating squid or something. There's no one right or wrong way to play DF, it doesn't take intelligence or lack thereof. So Damiac, please slack off the massively insulting strawman.

Dwarf Fortress isn't "hard" once you learn the interface and the basics of the game (that's why we have challenges/mods), but like you say it does take time and effort.  And things that take time and effort are often thought of as hard.

Time and effort that exists in every other game ever, the only difference being the complexity of DF scales this up. What's not to realize?

My point is not to complain about the UI.  It's also not to bash the playerbase.

They like that DF is difficult to learn and play, because it makes them feel special that they were able to learn it.

So I'm gonna say something that will probably make a lot of people here mad: Being able to play dwarf fortress does not prove you are super intelligent.

  It is rather to provide a reminder of what this game is really about.  It's based on common responses I see when people suggest things like making migration waves easier to handle (Typical response: "I thought you wanted DF to be more challenging?!? Part of the challenge is dealing with migrants")

And the big bad wolf made a house out of all the blown down straw. If you hate migrants so much, just magma them. Personal choice.

Mastering a challenging interface simply lets you access the game.

It's a good thing it's not challenging then. Patience.

So go ahead and pat yourself on the back for mastering a difficult interface, but do not insist that the interface must remain challenging because it's "part of the challenge of DF".

My point is not to complain about the UI.  It's also not to bash the playerbase.

I play so much dorf fort it's easy to see that the interface would eventually become effortlessly easy for me to use. Because of an insane amount of practice. I don't see how I could ever lose sight of how much work it takes to get used to it, or how many keypresses I am still going through, relative to any other computer program that requires an input of similar complexity?

There are more than one ways to do something in DF. The most key presses it takes for me to do one action would probably be 3, (b) (c) (w). Not very hard at all.

I'm serious about the interface. Once I figured out how to scroll I didn't have any trouble remembering what did what.

Sentiments echoed.

I think It could be good idea for Toady One to implement Dwarf Therapist in the game,
except the only way to use it would be by assigning a Dwarf as "The Rapist" "Therapist".

Oh this isn't necessary. I could imagine the IG manager replacing therapist in the future.

[Leatra]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Fire!

[thvaz]

Hey Toady! I don't have money for donations, but you don't deserve them anyway because you refuse to give me an UI with Triple A quality!

The graphics are fine, I don't like elitists but the ASCII keeps the idiots away! Bye!