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[Dyret]

Translation: "La la, I cannot hear you".

It's pretty much true though, going by the sheer amount of 'OMG TheH ENTERGACE Is SHETTY ISN't IT SO SHITTY OMG THE INTERFACE IS SHITTYDONE'T TOU AGREE' going on in every other thread, its more of something people have decided to latch onto with religious fervor rather than constructive criticism at this stage. Yeah, it's shit, what's it to you?

Yeah, there is absolutely no reason that one could NOT get into DF just because of utterly shitty abominable illogical crap that is User Interface. This must be because of people commenting about said shitty UI. Yeah, thats it. Better to shot messenger.

People who pick up a game in alpha expecting a user friendly product of the bug free variety deserve to suffer.

Entire point of this thread is that not everyone is masochist in denial. Face it: with sane UI DF would have order of magnitude larger following.

So don't play it. No one is forcing you to play an unfinished alpha.

[AutomataKittay]

I would like some let's plays to show how to play without Therapist and other tools though, because from my own experience a bit of good advice on technique goes a long way to enabling DF enjoyment.

Entire point of this thread is that not everyone is masochist in denial. Face it: with sane UI DF would have order of magnitude larger following.

I'm a masochist to some extent, and that sounds more like a bad joke to me
And I have to disagree with the sane UI comment, you'd have to change the graphics first. Most people get put off by the fact it's got ASCII tileset first. Then, they get put off by lack of tutorial capacity within DF itself. Then there're the sheer variety of options, and not knowing where to start.

I had a lot of help just looking in the forum and DFwiki, but I'd like some well-built tutorial as part of DF, instead of external thing.

Well said Scrimpton and Mictlante... er, I agree!  There are a few people who have built temples around their criticisms of bugs and UI problems that should really chill out, and it worries me that would even discourage some players from getting into DF.  Luckily enough people are around to get out the message that things are perfectly manageable as they are.  I would like some let's plays to show how to play without Therapist and other tools though, because from my own experience a bit of good advice on technique goes a long way to enabling DF enjoyment.

The game's pretty difficult to keep playable past a certain amount of dwarves without help, even with good techniques and careful planning. It can get a bit overwhelming to have to manage them effectively. Though, fortunately, there're pop cap and birth cap in the init to manage the amount. I've not used any external tools, and have developed a certain form of management on my own, that I'm not sure works for others.

( I don't checks out Let's Play stuff, does most of them really depends on Therapists and other tools? )

[reality.auditor]

its more of something people have decided to latch onto with religious fervor

Someone would think complaints from many unrelated people about same thing has high probability of being real problem. But no, they are fanatics or whatever excuse you have. La, la la.

People who pick up a game in alpha expecting a user friendly product of the bug free variety deserve to suffer.

I expect buggy, unfinished game. And no, crappy UI is not same thing as unfinished UI. UI is not unfinished - Toady does not give a flying fuck about it. Very big difference.

And I have to disagree with the sane UI comment, you'd have to change the graphics first. Most people get put off by the fact it's got ASCII tileset first.

You think that that changing to graphic tileset is prerequisite to UI changes? Or that pseudo-ASCII tiles are bigger problem than UI?

[Mictlantecuhtli]

I expect buggy, unfinished game. And no, crappy UI is not same thing as unfinished UI. UI is not unfinished - Toady does not give a flying fuck about it. Very big difference.

You don't know what you're talking about, at all.

The UI has long been a target of Toady's, but, you see, when making a game some things tend to take the backburner. If you weren't such a frothing child you'd see it takes effort [actually, an effort on the scale of making the game itself] to revamp the entirety the UI, something Toady has said he will do in the future when it's actually needed, and not to cater to children who whine to get their way. If you've actually followed and read what Toady's said over the years, you'd know these things.

[reality.auditor]

You don't know what you're talking about, at all.

*shrug* And DF is not your typical alpha. DF will be in alpha forever. In fact, I do not think standard "alpha" definition from commercial gaming industry apply to DF anyway.

The UI has long been a target of Toady's

Judging by results... nope.

whine

So this is how criticism that one do not like is called nowadays.

[AutomataKittay]

its more of something people have decided to latch onto with religious fervor

Someone would think complaints from many unrelated people about same thing has high probability of being real problem. But no, they are fanatics or whatever excuse you have. La, la la.

People who pick up a game in alpha expecting a user friendly product of the bug free variety deserve to suffer.

I expect buggy, unfinished game. And no, crappy UI is not same thing as unfinished UI. UI is not unfinished - Toady does not give a flying fuck about it. Very big difference.

And I have to disagree with the sane UI comment, you'd have to change the graphics first. Most people get put off by the fact it's got ASCII tileset first.

You think that that changing to graphic tileset is prerequisite to UI changes? Or that pseudo-ASCII tiles are bigger problem than UI?

I think the tileset's the bigger problem for popular desires, much bigger, considering first exposure is what people see of it's screen. Nobody 'modern' want to deal with ancient-looking game, even if it's the epicest thing ever and have the best UI otherwise. After all, there're plenty of comments on this very forum of others decline trying it because of it's look.

And I am starting to have some suspicion that you're a hardhead troll with some rage about keyboard UI

[Mictlantecuhtli]

You don't know what you're talking about, at all.

*shrug* And DF is not your typical alpha. DF will be in alpha forever. In fact, I do not think standard "alpha" definition from commercial gaming industry apply to DF anyway.

Really don't give a damn what you think an alpha is.

[Dyret]

Someone would think complaints from many unrelated people about same thing has high probability of being real problem. But no, they are fanatics or whatever excuse you have. La, la la.

As I said, the interface is shit. This is common knowledge. The problem is when certain people latch onto it as *the* problem of the game with a touch of 'Toady doesn't care about the little people' thrown in for good measure then get incredibly defensive about it. That's less constructive criticism and more really lame cause.

I expect buggy, unfinished game. And no, crappy UI is not same thing as unfinished UI. UI is not unfinished - Toady does not give a flying fuck about it. Very big difference.

Got a source on that? I'm pretty sure he'll streamline it eventually, but for now I'd much rather see elf sites and climbing than him spending two years doing whatever it is you have to do to make an ascii game interface slightly less awful.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

whine

So this is how criticism that one do not like is called nowadays.

You don't know what you're talking about, at all.

[reality.auditor]

You think that that changing to graphic tileset is prerequisite to UI changes? Or that pseudo-ASCII tiles are bigger problem than UI?

I think the tileset's the bigger problem for popular desires, much bigger, considering first exposure is what people see of it's screen. Nobody 'modern' want to deal with ancient-looking game, even if it's the epicest thing ever and have the best UI otherwise. After all, there're plenty of comments on this very forum of others decline trying it because of it's look.

There ARE graphical tilesets. Is it not sufficient? It must be included by default in downloaded game? I myself play with graphical tilesets.

I will argument for bigger importance of UI this way: target group of this game don't care much for fancy graphics in first place (you yourself call for tileset, not some 3D-whatever). I think that majority of this group would like better UI. I do not expect Goblin Camp-like UI, but some unifications would be nice. Yeah, I know, dreams.

I expect buggy, unfinished game. And no, crappy UI is not same thing as unfinished UI. UI is not unfinished - Toady does not give a flying fuck about it. Very big difference.

Got a source on that?

If you want Toady saying in intervierw "I do not give flying fuck about UI", then no. It is my opinion. My source is game itself and way of doing things in it.

than him spending two years doing whatever it is you have to do to make an ascii game interface slightly less awful.

You just argued that Toady is so bad programmer that he cannot do it in shorter time than "two years" and with better results than "slightly less awful". I disagree.

I think I will slowly wind down discussion, as any UI complaints are for some people beserk button.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

If you want Toady saying in intervierw "I do not give flying fuck about UI", then no. It is my opinion. My source is game itself and way of doing things in it.

I think I will slowly wind down discussion, as any UI complaints are for some people beserk button.

Hey, look at that, you saying you're making an opinion statement then getting confused that people call you out on your uneducated horseshit.

You don't know what you're talking about, at all.

*shrug* And DF is not your typical alpha. DF will be in alpha forever. In fact, I do not think standard "alpha" definition from commercial gaming industry apply to DF anyway.

The UI has long been a target of Toady's

Judging by results... nope.

Okay, here's a basic response from Toady regarding interfaces, and including real changes he will likely be making when the time comes:

[About 3rd party interfaces and future open-support for them in DF's interface, which would require him to do that 'overhaul']
Depending on the stage of the interface overhaul, ultimately I'm going to be support 2D tilesets (probably in dimensions of multiples of 4 because I'm lazy with image file headers).  So if you want to draw up some 32x32s or something, you won't be wasting your time, I think.  It should be fairly straightforward to support single z-slice isometric stuff as well, once I get that going, since I'd just have to change the print locations and print order, though transparency decisions are probably annoying, and it's slightly more annoying to get multilayer isometric stuff going, since people are going to want various options about display there, so I don't really have a clear opinion on the future of isometric.  The support for a resizeable viewport/window is definite, but nothing has been decided on layering there (for instance, critters walking over grass tiles, that kind of thing -- people will want more and more out of this system, such as inventory and wound displays, and I'm not sure where lines will be drawn, or where it will bog down, anyway).

So you coming along and saying he "Doesn't give a fuck" about the topic is asinine, just go through some of his interviews, most of them bring up the question of future interface development.

Source: I've been following DF for 6 years.

Maybe the search bar will prevent you from saying things that aren't true in the future.

[AutomataKittay]

I expect buggy, unfinished game. And no, crappy UI is not same thing as unfinished UI. UI is not unfinished - Toady does not give a flying fuck about it. Very big difference.

Got a source on that? I'm pretty sure he'll streamline it eventually, but for now I'd much rather see elf sites and climbing than him spending two years doing whatever it is you have to do to make an ascii game interface slightly less awful.

I can counteract the not caring with pointing out that Toady's been generally supportive of DFHack and DFTherapist. And his attempt to expand and improve the military management between 40d and 31.xx not to mention unlimiting the stockpile linkage and improving it's management ( the stockpile thing's more subtle, but it was massive improvement for industry organization for me ). I've even heard that he's improved mouse interface some, too, but I've never used mouse and magmawiki don't note anything about it.

You're right, though, it'd take a lot of effort to improve the interface beyond current standard, for too little gain in term of returns.

You think that that changing to graphic tileset is prerequisite to UI changes? Or that pseudo-ASCII tiles are bigger problem than UI?

I think the tileset's the bigger problem for popular desires, much bigger, considering first exposure is what people see of it's screen. Nobody 'modern' want to deal with ancient-looking game, even if it's the epicest thing ever and have the best UI otherwise. After all, there're plenty of comments on this very forum of others decline trying it because of it's look.

There ARE graphical tilesets. Is it not sufficient? It must be included by default in downloaded game? I myself play with graphical tilesets.

I will argument for bigger importance of UI this way: target group of this game don't care much for fancy graphics in first place (you yourself call for tileset, not some 3D-whatever). I think that majority of this group would like better UI. I do not expect Goblin Camp-like UI, but some unifications would be nice. Yeah, I know, dreams.

Yes, nice-looking graphic tiles need to be the default just for most people to take a second look at it. I uses the default ASCII because I don't mind it and tend to play older games so the appearance don't matters as much. I've never even thought to look at graphic tilesets, except once or twice at a whim, but never played with it. I am pleased that there are graphic tilesets for those that want to play the game but prefer different style.

I know nothing about Goblin Camp, though, so I can't comment on it.

[reality.auditor]

@Mictlantecuhtli: I will be short.
1. If phrase "Toady don't give a fuck about UI" offends you so much, I will rephrase it as "UI is very, very low priority for Toady". Better?
2. Your cite is more about graphics support than UI itself.
3. I believe more that I see in game than vague promises for unspecified "when time will come"

You accussed me of ignorance in that matter. No, I know what Toady said in various interviews, DF talks, dev logs and whatever. I do not believe it in this particular case (UI). Why?

I think development of DF never will formally end and DF is in perpetual-alpha state (nothing wrong with that). Toady never will get around to UI overhaul, as he is not interested in this at all (lip service, like your cite, nothwitstanding) and always will find something more important to do.

Yes, nice-looking graphic tiles need to be the default just for most people to take a second look at it.

People what are prone to play DF anyway (so not "most people") will be put off more by UI than by graphics (as they are capable of finding and loading tilesets). Let's say there are two new version of DF:
- same graphics, but better UI
- graphical tileset out of box, same UI
Both versions, of course, will see higher adoption rate than original. I claim that version of DF with same graphics, but better UI will see larger adoption rate than DF with default graphic tileset, but current UI. Why? Because people will use third-party tileset if they cannot stand ASCII, yet they still wat to play this game. There is no fix like that for UI.

I know nothing about Goblin Camp, though, so I can't comment on it.

No problem, I mentioned it only in context of alternative UI. Here is movie demonstrating that you can have good UI while using ASCII. Yes, it uses mouse extensively, but most of these tricks would work identically with keyboard, like building walls.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

You accussed me of ignorance in that matter. No, I know what Toady said in various interviews, DF talks, dev logs and whatever. I do not believe it in this particular case (UI). Why?

I think development of DF never will formally end and DF is in perpetual-alpha state (nothing wrong with that). Toady never will get around to UI overhaul, as he is not interested in this at all (lip service, like your cite, nothwitstanding) and always will find something more important to do.

There you go, then. You have an issue of trust with the developer, and that's your issue which shouldn't be brought up in the public forum seeing as that's not any sort of an argument. You seem to have an air of entitlement. Unless Toady can pacify you I don't see you being happy.

[noobnubcakes]

I think It could be good idea for Toady One to implement Dwarf Therapist in the game,
except the only way to use it would be by assigning a Dwarf as "The Rapist" "Therapist".