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[muzzz]

So go ahead and pat yourself on the back for mastering a difficult interface, but do not insist that the interface must remain challenging because it's "part of the challenge of DF".

Did someone really say that?

I've seen plenty of people dismissing suggestions for UI updates/improvements, but 99% of those are pointing out that the game isn't finished.

[Imp]

People regularly make tools that interface with DF.  From Dwarf Therapist to DFhack to Stonesense to Soundsense - this game isn't locked down in a way that makes us only able to touch it through the means that Toady has currently created.

Should Toady a) work on what he feels like, b) work on new features/fixing bugs, or c) improve the interface for the game as it exists now?

I say a), which I think is what is happening - and a) looks a lot like b).

But we can improve the interface through tools.  And we do - those of us who can and want to.  If you see something lacking that tools could handle, why not make that tool, or talk to someone who can?

[AutomataKittay]

So go ahead and pat yourself on the back for mastering a difficult interface, but do not insist that the interface must remain challenging because it's "part of the challenge of DF".

Did someone really say that?

I've seen plenty of people dismissing suggestions for UI updates/improvements, but 99% of those are pointing out that the game isn't finished.

I've seen rare people say that the interface is part of the challenge, though I suspect mostly in jest. I still don't get all this bragging about 'difficult interface'. It's not the best, but it's pretty good for what it does as unfinished as it is. The problem is probably closer to information overload and lack of built in tutorials to help with that.

[ZimminyCricket]

I can agree and disagree with this thread.

Personally, I find most of the controls to be very intuitive for what they do and (once you get them muscle memorized) easy to use. It is an incredibly massive interface, with many different areas in which you can go wrong, but once you've got it, the basic stuff is pretty simple.  You just have to be willing to learn as you go.

That said, there are several areas that could seriously use some polish and there are still some that are kind of clunky.  This does lead to challenge, however, the challenge isn't part of the interface; it's an internal one, and that is learning to have patience do deal with things that are going to be fixed.  (Very Zen if you ask me) 

I will admit that  this is a game that I shelved about a year ago, saying, "This is just too complex for me to grasp right now." for me it really wasn't the interface as opposed to the shear number of things required to play, but I picked it up again about a month and a half ago, and find myself simply amazed at all the things to do and learn. 

One of the things I've learned is that this is an incredibly complex game, with not really a learning curve as opposed to a learning cliff face.*  But as with the any game of this depth, I don't ever really playing without the wiki open -- so I always have ready access to whatever information I may need. 

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

read: A learning ceiling suspended over a bottomless pit, to which you must cling or fall to certain doom.  Also the ceiling is 400 feet above where the floor used to be and the floor was just knocked out beneath your feet.

But with a little time and effort, the challenge becomes an internal one, and with a little bit of drive you can succeed.

To address the second point of the "I'm more intelligent than you because I mastered an incredibly complex interface." personality type.  Some people are just dicks.  It doesn't matter how you cut it, they're out there, but let's be honest, if you are playing a game of this depth you are probably 'smarter than most' and you rightly take pride in it.   I also get a sense of that with the community as a whole, and thankfully it makes me feel like I belong here. 

tldr;
All told, this is not a game for the weak of heart, and somebody not used to a control scheme utilizing MOST keys on the keyboard in one form or another, will probably feel lost for a while, mastering the interface is part of your eternal challenge, and people are dicks. 

Sorry to hijack the thread, but case closed.

[Rex_Nex]

No one should really feel superior by playing DF. You're right OP, the interface is pretty much the biggest hurdle in the game. Surviving in-game is only one step above surviving in a game like Minecraft. You need dig a hole, close it off, and make a little farm and brewery. Bam, game won.

The interface itself isn't that bad. The problem is that a small portion of the screens have no details on how to open them. The overwhelming majority, however, do. There's a list of buttons that show what button opens up that you have to stare at the entire game.

[muzzz]

So go ahead and pat yourself on the back for mastering a difficult interface, but do not insist that the interface must remain challenging because it's "part of the challenge of DF".

Did someone really say that?

I've seen plenty of people dismissing suggestions for UI updates/improvements, but 99% of those are pointing out that the game isn't finished.

I've seen rare people say that the interface is part of the challenge, though I suspect mostly in jest. I still don't get all this bragging about 'difficult interface'. It's not the best, but it's pretty good for what it does as unfinished as it is. The problem is probably closer to information overload and lack of built in tutorials to help with that.

I do get bragging about mastering DF's interface. It's a long, painful task with no intrinsic reward. The mental equivalent of running a marathon. People take pride in such things. But saying the interface shouldn't be improved because of it is like saying nobody should ever run less than a marathon...

Your comment about information overload, however, did remind me that I've seen people have differing ideas about the line between interface improvement and game simplification. That might be creating some extra tension.

[AutomataKittay]

I've seen plenty of people dismissing suggestions for UI updates/improvements, but 99% of those are pointing out that the game isn't finished.

I've seen rare people say that the interface is part of the challenge, though I suspect mostly in jest. I still don't get all this bragging about 'difficult interface'. It's not the best, but it's pretty good for what it does as unfinished as it is. The problem is probably closer to information overload and lack of built in tutorials to help with that.

I do get bragging about mastering DF's interface. It's a long, painful task with no intrinsic reward. The mental equivalent of running a marathon. People take pride in such things. But saying the interface shouldn't be improved because of it is like saying nobody should ever run less than a marathon...

Your comment about information overload, however, did remind me that I've seen people have differing ideas about the line between interface improvement and game simplification. That might be creating some extra tension.

I'm fairly sure that majority of problem with DF's interface is the information overload, there're just so many options right up front. Newcomers are overwhelmed rather easily, and even more experienced players still struggles sometimes. It is reasonably good considering just how many options it offers up front, to me. Doesn't means it can't be improved, it's just it'll take a lot more work to shape it better without losing too much options.

Lack of well-organized key setup doesn't helps much in that, but all in all, it doesn't really improves the gameplay much if it was organized perfectly with current state of interface. You'd still have to deal with mapping to redundancy and with sheer amount of options and variety to manage. I believe there're some mods that tries to address those by simplifying things, it's indirect and only affect materials used, but it's a start to consider.

Of course all of this is my opinion, and I know different people approaches DF/gameplay differently, so I can't speak for all of them! Current approach is probably closer to having a whole workshop right there to someone that don't know what almost anything does. I'm not sure how to simplify it down to something more like LEGO set, which would be appericated by more people without losing too much complexity.

[Alastar]

Given that the game is under heavy development, the interface needs to be powerful and extensible more than it needs to be polished. I think most of it is better than people give it credit for.
What I'm missing (perhaps literally) is more automation to reduce micromanagement. For example, I'd be fond of stockpile targets like "queue brewing orders whenever Dwarven Wine drops below 50".

[Mictlantecuhtli]

This topic was created because of one's personal strawman of DF players, and it's pretty odd you're all taking it even remotely serious. Even if he seems to believe himself.

[AmpsterMan]

So I have a question

Suppose a new update were to be made in which one can use the mouse to paint a section and then designate that same section as a "room" (IE: 5x5 dug out hole) say that room can be assigned to a dwarf. Any piece of furniture in that room would be owned by said dwarf. This would make it easier to designate dining rooms, living rooms, studies, etc. for dwarves, yet wouldn't add anything that one can't already do with the current interface. I think an argument can be made that since making fancier rooms is easier now, dwarves will be happier.
Would this be a case of an UI improvement making the game "easier"*? Or am I making assumptions and making some logical pitfalls. It literally just occurred to me; I haven't given it much thought.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

By easier I mean gameplay wise, not accessibility wise

[Scrimpton]

I'm serious about the interface. Once I figured out how to scroll I didn't have any trouble remembering what did what.

As a person who's been playing for only 2 days (about 30 hours in that timespan though.....) I must say that after hour 2 i didn't have any more gripes with the interface. It's got a fairly consistent pattern of when and where to use arrow keys or +/-. The job assigning is tedious, even with dwarf therapist, but that's the nature of micromanagement.

Some of the hotkeys are fairly quirky, Loo(k) springs to mind,(d) for mine.. (e) for furnace.. but these are a one time barrier that really only take a couple of milliseconds to process and store away for next usage.


Personally i feel some of the points raised are more to do with tactic than interface. It's not frustrating to figure out what to do with migrants due to the interface. It's frustrating because it's a difficult thought process. No matter how many reminders or mouse interactions or bright colour coding you have, it's still going to be difficult fitting in so many newcomers into a fort that is essentially already working fine.

Even a basic fort is going to have 5+ industries running, with a minimum of 30 dwarves early on.
That level is pretty easy to micromanage, but once you start getting waves of 30 extra migrants, it's a strategic/tactical error in thinking that you can continue to manage at the same level.
Personally that's where the beauty of Workshop profiles come in. All the new guys get every labour enabled, but only the best of the best get to use workshops. That's the limit of my micro past 60-70 dwarves, and it's no longer an exercise in frustration.

I'd say the fact that the interface allows for such precise micromanagent, or indeed a sloppier but easier macromanagement style is pretty impressive.

I only wish i hadn't listened to things such as the OP of this thread, as it put me off playing the game for no real reason.

Sorry for ramble.

edit: and for one thing, i'm happy to finally have both hands on the keyboard whilst gaming again.. makes this filco ALMOST seem worth the pricetag

[hermes]

Well said Scrimpton and Mictlante... er, I agree!  There are a few people who have built temples around their criticisms of bugs and UI problems that should really chill out, and it worries me that would even discourage some players from getting into DF.  Luckily enough people are around to get out the message that things are perfectly manageable as they are.  I would like some let's plays to show how to play without Therapist and other tools though, because from my own experience a bit of good advice on technique goes a long way to enabling DF enjoyment.

[reality.auditor]

There are a few people who have built temples around their criticisms of bugs and UI problems that should really chill out,

Translation: "La la, I cannot hear you".

and it worries me that would even discourage some players from getting into DF.

Yeah, there is absolutely no reason that one could NOT get into DF just because of utterly shitty abominable illogical crap that is User Interface. This must be because of people commenting about said shitty UI. Yeah, thats it. Better to shot messenger.

I would like some let's plays to show how to play without Therapist and other tools though, because from my own experience a bit of good advice on technique goes a long way to enabling DF enjoyment.

Entire point of this thread is that not everyone is masochist in denial. Face it: with sane UI DF would have order of magnitude larger following.

[Leatra]

I play CoD and if I'm playing with my friends (around 6 people) I usually become the first or the second best player in the game. To play CoD you need fast reflexes, ability to use the mouse very efficently, and memorize every map. These kind of things are required in every FPS but all of these are worthless in DF. Someone who is the king of CoD will have some kind of a "WTF IS THIS SHIT" attitude towards DF (I know I had) and it's not going to be changed just because UI is changed. Even if you change the UI, new players will still be scared of this game.

Playing DF doesn't prove that you are highly intelligent, it proves you have time, dedication, and patience to learn this game. Just like playing CoD proves you know the things I mentioned above. It doesn't prove that you are a genius.

[AmpsterMan]

I would like some let's plays to show how to play without Therapist and other tools though, because from my own experience a bit of good advice on technique goes a long way to enabling DF enjoyment.

I play without dwarf therapist. I think part of the game IS running an inefficient fortress where you have to see everyone individually (ie, reading their description) and then decide on an individual basis wit no wuantitative information, only qualitative. Once I started playing slower, on a smaller and individualized scale not only have I gotten betterr at the game, but I enjoy it much more as well.