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[kaijyuu]

I'd still allow indirect victims for crimes, so that we can still have environmental protection laws and such

[Nadaka]

oooo. i've been thinking about posting a thread exactly like this for a while. posting to watch. will contribute at some point.

[TripJack]

we should probably get something in there somewhere that repeals the nineteenth ammendment

[Zrk2]

I'd still allow indirect victims for crimes, so that we can still have environmental protection laws and such

Perhaps they could be covered in civil suits or something? Or we could just include a right to an untarnished environment.

[10ebbor10]

I considered that, but I couldn't find any better answer, wait a minute. I've got something! And a couple others I missed.

Zrk2's Bill of Rights, Draft Two

1. All persons residing in the USA shall have the right to freely express their opinions without constraint or limitation, except in such cases where they have previously agreed in writing not to do so. I'd change this thing. They have the freedom of speech, as long as it won't infringe on the rights of others, or they have previously agreed in writing not to do so.

2. All persons residing within the USA shall have the right to freely travel between the states without any restrictions, unless said restrictions are terms of bail or probation.

3. All persons residing in the USA shall have the right to own property, provided they pay taxes and do not use it to exert undue influence upon the lives of others.

4. Any citizen of the USA may hold any office once they have attained their age of majority.

5. No branch of government may force a person to either undertake, or not undertake a medical procedure. Abortion is a medical procedure.Change this thing to allow governement to enforce quarantine in case of epidemics, and prevent dangerous procedures.(dangerous procedure is when it hurts others as well as yourself)

6. All persons residing in the USA shall have the right to possess firearms provided they do not have a felony conviction and do not have a history of mental illness.I'd place some limitations on which kind of firearms, but then again I'm from Europe. We don't have the same gun culture as America.

7. All citizens of the USA may vote in all elections, provided their primary residence is within the jurisdiction of said election, and they are not currently in prison. Why can't prisoners vote?

8. The president of the USA shall be elected by a simple majority of the popular vote. A majority as in the most, or as in at least x% required. I'd go for at least x% required, with succeeding rounds in which the worst candidates fall off. As soon as a candidate has 66%, he wins.
First past the post is a terrible system

9. Political ads shall be banned during election season. Instead, all persons running for the position, with a petition for them to run bearing at least 100 signatures, shall take part in a series of publicly televised, radio broadcasted, and published in all other possible forms of media.

10. The press shall have the right to publish all news as it occurs, unless a judge has specifically forbidden it, and provided in writing a detailed explanation of why it may not be published at the time of the first printing. These explanations are only valid if they provide a reasonable expectation of gross bodily harm to a person residing in the USA or endanger citizens of the USA currently abroad.See the same thing as with freedom of speech

11. All persons residing in the USA shall have the right to a fair and speedy trial, either by a judge or jury of their peers, as the law dictates.

12. All persons residing in the USA shall have the right to absolute privacy of thought, possessions, beliefs, and everything else unless a warrant is granted for the search of a specific item. The warrant must cite a reasonable cause to believe that said item is involved in, or supporting a, crime. All warrants must be issued by a judge.

13. All persons residing in the USA shall have the freedom to practice whatever religion they choose, or none at all.

14. "Marriage" is no longer a recognized state of being by the state. Instead a civil union is available to persons who desire it, regardless of age, race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, or any other similar factors.

15. Congressional terms shall be limited to three terms as a congressman, three terms as a senator, and two terms as President.

16. All persons shall have the freedom to assemble and discuss any and all issues.

17. Church and state shall remain absolutely separate. Churches shall not receives exemptions for anything which is not immediately and specifically, and directly linked to their charitable activities.Maybe expand this to other things too, compagnies shouldn't be interfering in governement.

18. All state laws shall be directly subordinate to federal law in the case that said laws overlap.

19. Congress shall have the power to take measures necessary, including, but not limited to, taxation and legislation, to enforce these rights.

20. Money is not speech. Money is property.

21. All persons shall have the right to be free from discrimination based on age, gender, sexual orientation, religion ( or lack thereof) or other irrelevant factors.

22. There are no victimless crimes. Thus if a victim cannot be readily demonstrated, there has been no crime. A victim must be directly harmed or disadvantaged by the act to qualify as a victim.Yeah, I'd change this thing. There are such things as victims against abstract things, or against groups of people.

I'd still allow indirect victims for crimes, so that we can still have environmental protection laws and such

Perhaps they could be covered in civil suits or something? Or we could just include a right to an untarnished environment.

How would the governement enforce that when any breach of it isn't a crime?

[Zrk2]

How do they enforce anything else that isn't specifically a crime? Pass laws. Perhaps that section needs to be broadened.

[misko27]

I'd still allow indirect victims for crimes, so that we can still have environmental protection laws and such

Perhaps they could be covered in civil suits or something? Or we could just include a right to an untarnished environment.

Can't be that vague. Think about it, NYC, for example. Completly wiped out many species from the map. The solution of this is to disband the city, which would be unacceptable.

Everyone, before you write something, imagine The most extreme interpretaion of it possible. When needed I'll provide it.

I considered that, but I couldn't find any better answer, wait a minute. I've got something! And a couple others I missed.

Zrk2's Bill of Rights, Draft Two

1. All persons residing in the USA shall have the right to freely express their opinions without constraint or limitation, except in such cases where they have previously agreed in writing not to do so. I'd change this thing. They have the freedom of speech, as long as it won't infringe on the rights of others, or they have previously agreed in writing not to do so.

2. All persons residing within the USA shall have the right to freely travel between the states without any restrictions, unless said restrictions are terms of bail or probation.

3. All persons residing in the USA shall have the right to own property, provided they pay taxes and do not use it to exert undue influence upon the lives of others. I can imagine situations where this could go wrong. No one doesn't pay taxes. Limit it to Property specific.

4. Any citizen of the USA may hold any office once they have attained their age of majority. I don't like the idea that I can be president at age 18. I reccomend either aging the age of majority or at least moving it to 25.

5. No branch of government may force a person to either undertake, or not undertake a medical procedure. Abortion is a medical procedure.Change this thing to allow governement to enforce quarantine in case of epidemics, and prevent dangerous procedures.(dangerous procedure is when it hurts others as well as yourself) Also right here. Remember, your rights end where others begin.

6. All persons residing in the USA shall have the right to possess firearms provided they do not have a felony conviction and do not have a history of mental illness.I'd place some limitations on which kind of firearms, but then again I'm from Europe. We don't have the same gun culture as America. I'm seconding types. What about miniguns? Those are fire-arms. There shoudl probably be a ban on military style weapons.

7. All citizens of the USA may vote in all elections, provided their primary residence is within the jurisdiction of said election, and they are not currently in prison. Why can't prisoners vote? What about residents of Puerto rico? And other US held lands.

8. The president of the USA shall be elected by a simple majority of the popular vote. A majority as in the most, or as in at least x% required. I'd go for at least x% required, with succeeding rounds in which the worst candidates fall off. As soon as a candidate has 66%, he wins.
First past the post is a terrible systemAgree with the other dude.

9. Political ads shall be banned during election season. Instead, all persons running for the position, with a petition for them to run bearing at least 100 signatures, shall take part in a series of publicly televised, radio broadcasted, and published in all other possible forms of media. Personally, I think if political ads were funded solely by personal contributions, it would count as a expression of support.

10. The press shall have the right to publish all news as it occurs, unless a judge has specifically forbidden it, and provided in writing a detailed explanation of why it may not be published at the time of the first printing. These explanations are only valid if they provide a reasonable expectation of gross bodily harm to a person residing in the USA or endanger citizens of the USA currently abroad.See the same thing as with freedom of speech Woah, are you removing permenant free speech? Holy crap. The current laws already provide for slander in the case of a none-public figure.

11. All persons residing in the USA shall have the right to a fair and speedy trial, either by a judge or jury of their peers, as the law dictates.

12. All persons residing in the USA shall have the right to absolute privacy of thought, possessions, beliefs, and everything else unless a warrant is granted for the search of a specific item. The warrant must cite a reasonable cause to believe that said item is involved in, or supporting a, crime. All warrants must be issued by a judge. What of cases of emergency, such as if a life was on the line? Such things must be accounted for.

13. All persons residing in the USA shall have the freedom to practice whatever religion they choose, or none at all.

14. "Marriage" is no longer a recognized state of being by the state. Instead a civil union is available to persons who desire it, regardless of age, race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, or any other similar factors.

15. Congressional terms shall be limited to three terms as a congressman, three terms as a senator, and two terms as President.

16. All persons shall have the freedom to assemble and discuss any and all issues.

17. Church and state shall remain absolutely separate. Churches shall not receives exemptions for anything which is not immediately and specifically, and directly linked to their charitable activities.Maybe expand this to other things too, companies shouldn't be interfering in governement.

18. All state laws shall be directly subordinate to federal law in the case that said laws overlap.

19. Congress shall have the power to take measures necessary, including, but not limited to, taxation and legislation, to enforce these rights.

20. Money is not speech. Money is property. Technically it's it's neither. It's a currency. Saying it's property so bluntly could have far reaching effects. Do you have to pay taxes on money? Can I not own money if I don't pay taxes?

21. All persons shall have the right to be free from discrimination based on age, gender, sexual orientation, religion ( or lack thereof) or other irrelevant factors. Irrelevant to what? This vagueness could be abused.

22. There are no victimless crimes. Thus if a victim cannot be readily demonstrated, there has been no crime. A victim must be directly harmed or disadvantaged by the act to qualify as a victim.Yeah, I'd change this thing. There are such things as victims against abstract things, or against groups of people. What about littering?

[Leafsnail]

22. There are no victimless crimes. Thus if a victim cannot be readily demonstrated, there has been no crime. A victim must be directly harmed or disadvantaged by the act to qualify as a victim.

This would fuck with environmental laws more than anything else.  I'm aware you could say a group of people are being affected but there may be cases where it's extremely hard to demonstrate who exactly was victimized by habitat destruction or pollution.

Also things like attempted murder.  If you find out someone intends to kill another person then you'd either have to wait until they kill them or stop them and let them try again.

[kaijyuu]

Yeah, I initially suggested it just so some of the bullshit laws would have a massive hoop to jump through. I'd still allow for indirect and potential victims to count.

Also things like attempted murder.  If you find out someone intends to kill another person then you'd either have to wait until they kill them or stop them and let them try again.

"You're under arrest for the future murder of..."

Personally I don't see the point of arresting someone for "attempted murder" if they never made an attempt. If they're just planning it, that's what restraining orders are for (or mental institutions, if they're considered a danger past that).

[Mictlantecuhtli]

If they're just planning it, that's what restraining orders are for (or mental institutions, if they're considered a danger past that).

Conspiracy to commit murder.

[Bohandas]

22. There are no victimless crimes. Thus if a victim cannot be readily demonstrated, there has been no crime. A victim must be directly harmed or disadvantaged by the act to qualify as a victim.

This would fuck with environmental laws more than anything else.  I'm aware you could say a group of people are being affected but there may be cases where it's extremely hard to demonstrate who exactly was victimized by habitat destruction or pollution.

Also things like attempted murder.  If you find out someone intends to kill another person then you'd either have to wait until they kill them or stop them and let them try again.

If somebody is attacked they have been victimized even if the attacker misses. You've still  scared them and ruined their day. Alternately, the wording could be changed to also include deliberate intent to harm

As for environmental laws, nowhere does the law specify that the victim must be human (which brings me to the related concern that it should be explicitly stated that the supposed victim may not be "God" or "the moral fabric of society")

EDIT:
Perhaps  something could also be added allowing for laws intended to prevent people from "recklessly and selfishly endangering the physical wellbeing of unwilling others."

[kaijyuu]

If they're just planning it, that's what restraining orders are for (or mental institutions, if they're considered a danger past that).

Conspiracy to commit murder.

I find it difficult to imagine someone who would do that that's not mentally unhinged in some fashion. So... rehabilitation rather than jail.

Do note we're not talking about crimes of passion here.

[10ebbor10]

22. There are no victimless crimes. Thus if a victim cannot be readily demonstrated, there has been no crime. A victim must be directly harmed or disadvantaged by the act to qualify as a victim.

This would fuck with environmental laws more than anything else.  I'm aware you could say a group of people are being affected but there may be cases where it's extremely hard to demonstrate who exactly was victimized by habitat destruction or pollution.

Also things like attempted murder.  If you find out someone intends to kill another person then you'd either have to wait until they kill them or stop them and let them try again.

If somebody is attacked they have been victimized even if the attacker misses. You've still  scared them and ruined their day. Alternately, the wording could be changed to also include deliberate intent to harm

As for environmental laws, nowhere does the law specify that the victim must be human (which brings me to the related concern that it should be explicitly stated that the supposed victim may not be "God" or "the moral fabric of society")

So you're going to imprison 2 thirds of the country for the mass murder on flies/ mosquitos or some other small animal?

[misko27]

22. There are no victimless crimes. Thus if a victim cannot be readily demonstrated, there has been no crime. A victim must be directly harmed or disadvantaged by the act to qualify as a victim.

This would fuck with environmental laws more than anything else.  I'm aware you could say a group of people are being affected but there may be cases where it's extremely hard to demonstrate who exactly was victimized by habitat destruction or pollution.

Also things like attempted murder.  If you find out someone intends to kill another person then you'd either have to wait until they kill them or stop them and let them try again.

If somebody is attacked they have been victimized even if the attacker misses. You've still  scared them and ruined their day. Alternately, the wording could be changed to also include deliberate intent to harm

As for environmental laws, nowhere does the law specify that the victim must be human (which brings me to the related concern that it should be explicitly stated that the supposed victim may not be "God" or "the moral fabric of society")

So you're going to imprison 2 thirds of the country for the mass murder on flies/ mosquitos or some other small animal?

In that case I must turn myself in now. I have personally ended the lives of dozens of them.

[kaijyuu]

You monster!


Serious mode, I don't think Bohandas is PETA. Laws would still have to be passed for such a thing to be a crime. It would just be constitutionally possible.