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[MetalSlimeHunt]

The rights enumerated in this Constitution shall be considered by the Congress and the States and the Courts and the lawfully appointed Judges thereof to apply to all peoples everywhere, regardless of citizenship within the United States, excepting the right to vote.

Curious how this would affect foreign policy

Indeed. Probably not too much though, since a lot of foreign policy actions aren't taken by the Congress and the States and the Courts and the lawfully appointed Judges therof.

I love talking like that.

Quick, someone argue that my intent was the exact opposite of what is written before its too late.

[MrWiggles]

I hereby present to you the Second Bill of Rights.

Spoiler: Amendment XXIX to the United States Constitution, the Right to Live (click to show/hide)

Section 1. The residents of the United States and the States and the Territories thereof shall not be involuntarily deprived of life for any reason, excepting an act of immediate and necessary self defense.

Section 2. The Congress and the States shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

Section 3. This amendment shall take effect immediately after the date of ratification.

So Abortion is illegal. And what about Police Action or acting in the defense of others?

Spoiler: Amendment XXX to the United States Constitution, the Right to Privacy (click to show/hide)

Section 1. The right of the residents of the United States and the States and the Territories thereof to personal secrecy of information and activity shall not be denied without due process of law.

Section 2. The Congress and the States shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

Section 3. This amendment shall take effect 30 days after the date of ratification.

what does this even mean? Resident?

Spoiler: Amendment XXXIII to the United States Constitution, the Right to Office (click to show/hide)

Section 1. All legal adult citizens of the United States and the States and the Territories thereof shall be eligible to hold public office, regardless of Age or Origin.

Section 2. The Congress and the States shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of the article.

Section 3. This amendment shall take effect immediately after the date of ratification.

Section 4. Article One, Section Two, Clause Two of this Constitution is thusly repealed and nullified.

Section 5. Article One, Section Three, Clause Three of this Constitution is thusly repealed and nullified.

Section 6. Article Two, Section One, Clause Five of this Constitution is thusly repealed and nullified.

So Foreign born can be president, even if they just moved here last month?

Spoiler: Amendment XXXIV to the United States Constitution, the Right to Environment (click to show/hide)

Section 1. The right of the residents of the United States and the States and the Territories thereof to a healthy and stable natural environment shall not be abridged or denied.

Section 2. The maintenance of Earth's environment shall be a priority and duty of the Congress and the States and the Territories.

Section 3. The Congress and the States shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

Section 4. This amendment shall take effect immediately after the date of ratification.

So we're charging with the govt. to take care of the entire planet well being? And then we're giving them Power to enforce this on the entire word?

Spoiler: Amendment XXXV to the United States Constitution, the Right to General Liberty (click to show/hide)

Section 1. No liberty or lifestyle taken by the residents of the United States and the States and the Territories thereof shall be abridged without due purpose by the State, proven through the Courts.

Section 2. No arbitrary restriction of liberty shall be taken by the United States and the States and the Territories thereof.

Section 3. The Congress and the States shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

Section 4. This amendment shall take effect immediately after the date of ratification.

What is a lifestyle? What if it murdering indiscriminately? And due purpose? what is that?

[Tellemurius]

Hold on we need a lawyer in here to help with this.

[misko27]

The rights enumerated in this Constitution shall be considered by the Congress and the States and the Courts and the lawfully appointed Judges thereof to apply to all peoples everywhere, regardless of citizenship within the United States, excepting the right to vote.

Curious how this would affect foreign policy

I think it means the united states will probably turn into a complete pariah. The legal implications are huge. Can the united states arrest a man who comitted a crime elsewhere what is a crime here, but was legal there? Would it violate the amendmant to arrest someone who did elsewhere what is legal here, but Illegal there? The affect on fugitives would make the US a south america for criminals, to be escaped too.

Also, It would be incredibly easy  to justify declaring war on virtually anyone who's laws differ. War hawks wouldhave a field day.

I can see it isa attempt to force the US to stop dealing with tyrants, but'll be seen as a attempt to enforce the US's values on others, nay, on the world. It must be re-thought or at least reworded.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

So Abortion is illegal.

No, the courts ruled in Roe v. Wade that the unborn are not people. And if that were overturned abortion would already be illegal, so this doesn't effect it.

And what about Police Action or acting in the defense of others?

"Immediate and necessary self defense" allows for the police to kill if the police themselves are in immediate danger of death. The defense of others coming up in such a way that you are also not in danger seems unlikely at best.

What does this even mean? Resident?

Resident. Someone residing within something. That being the United States.

So Foreign born can be president, even if they just moved here last month?

It says right there in the first sentence that only citizens can be President (or any other office, for that matter), and becoming a citizen takes years.

So we're charging with the govt. to take care of the entire planet well being? And then we're giving them Power to enforce this on the entire word?

We're on the planet so....yeah. Giving them the power to enforce it upon the entire world is not what it says. The US already tries to exercise its power everywhere anyway. The intention I am conveying is that the government has a duty to take care of the world we live in and should work with other nations to make sure that happens.

What is a lifestyle?

A way of living.

What if it murdering indiscriminately?

Then the states have a sufficient reason to violate that liberty (protecting other peoples right to live) and can prove it.

And due purpose? what is that?

Due purpose would be a meaningful reason for the state to have to restrict the liberty in question, as opposed to just, "I don't like it".

I think it means the united states will probably turn into a complete pariah. The legal implications are huge. Can the united states arrest a man who comitted a crime elsewhere what is a crime here, but was legal there? Would it violate the amendmant to arrest someone who did elsewhere what is legal here, but Illegal there? The affect on fugitives would make the US a south america for criminals, to be escaped too.

Also, It would be incredibly easy  to justify declaring war on virtually anyone who's laws differ. War hawks wouldhave a field day.

I can see it isa attempt to force the US to stop dealing with tyrants, but'll be seen as a attempt to enforce the US's values on others, nay, on the world. It must be re-thought or at least reworded.

You're missing the entire point. The wording is that the ENUMERATED RIGHTS OF THE CONSTITUTION are APPLIED to everyone under US authority (regardless of the actual physical location of that authority), citizen or not. Nothing to do with criminal law at all. The purpose of the Amendment is to keep the US government from mistreating foreigners, not "attack everyone for not being the same as us, merica".


Christ, no wonder the Founders get misunderstood so often.

[lordcooper]

A Right to Die clause would be pretty neat.  Euthanasia being illegal is teh suck.

E: You may as well get yourselves an NHS and legalise the drugs while you're at it.

[Kogan Loloklam]

I say we just disolve the Federal Government and have the 48 states of America.

If not that, convince the Randists to go all Galt and stop producing. We'd have a temporary drop in our GDP, but quickly rebound and enter into a new golden age of innovation, as copyright is no longer expanded 7 more years for every 5 that pass.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Spoiler: Amendment XXXIV to the United States Constitution, the Right to Environment (click to show/hide)

Section 1. The right of the residents of the United States and the States and the Territories thereof to a healthy and stable natural environment shall not be abridged or denied.

Section 2. The maintenance of Earth's environment shall be a priority and duty of the Congress and the States and the Territories.

Section 3. The Congress and the States shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

Section 4. This amendment shall take effect immediately after the date of ratification.

I like your amendments; but this one is the only one I have a slight objection to.

"The maintenance of Earth's environment shall be a priority and duty of the Congress and the States and the Territories."

This is far too general and could be easily used a-la-Interstate-Commerce to lead to very bad things, I see massive interventionism on behalf of the 'Earth' [which would be extrapolated and twisted to actually be GDP/corporate profits thanks to lobbyist meddling and our cuddly Military-Industrial complex] citing this as the precedent.

Let's just take a page out of Pennsylvania's very well-written environmental rights amendment:

Spoiler: My suggestion to replace (click to show/hide)

"The people have a right to clean air, pure water, and to the preservation of the natural, scenic, historic and esthetic values of the environment. All public natural resources are the common property of all the people, including generations yet to come. As trustee of these resources, the duty of the Congress and the States and the Territories thereof shall be to conserve and maintain them for the benefit of all the people."

I know, it'd be a long section and needs trimming; but it's got much stronger [true-Nature] provisions and less twistable wording. I don't disagree with the idea of the amendment, you just need to make sure if the things were actually implemented that they'd be enacted as they are, not as interpreted and god knows we know how it looks when people like to interpret wording themselves.

[Lagslayer]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

As almost a full year and five hundred pages of the election season and thread draw to a close in a week, we can start to reflect on the whole rollicking ride of the journey.

Over that time, one theme that has kept recurring has been the flaws of the U. S. Constitution. Now don't get me wrong: I adore the U. S. Constitution. The American government works on an entirely different engine from just about every country I can think of, but it still works- and it's been working like that for two hundred and twenty-two years. During that time, it's been able to support the country during its transition from an 18th-century agrarian country of four million, to a 19th-century rising industrial power of fifty million, to its current incarnation as the world's 300 million-plus strong sole (though not for long!) superpower, surviving western expansion, civil war, the forcible end of half the country's economic engine, mass immigration, two world wars, a depression, and the Cold War. And it's done this- if we count the Bill of Rights as being part of the original document, which for most intents and purposes they are- only having had to be edited thirteen times, one of which is no longer in force, and many of the others of which are decidedly minor.

Still, there's a vocal number of us who think it could use a bit of tweaking. Tomorrow, when I have a lot of time and nothing to do with it, I'll write another post to expand on my own ideas, but for now, here's some of the stuff that's come up most:

-It's becoming increasingly clear that the Electoral College is an egregious violation of the principle of "one man, one vote", and probably needs to be changed- not necessarily abolished completely, but changed.
-Many of us have expressed disapproval of the two-party system, and the huge barrier to third-party entry. I'll expand on this later, too.
-The original Constitution's biggest oversight, I would argue, was that the Framers assumed political parties wouldn't form, so the system was never built to accommodate them; the result has been that when parties have worked, they've worked well, but when they haven't, such as the current time of writing, they've been a huge bug in the system.
-Division of rights between the feds, the states and the people. Man, if there's anything I'd like to go back in time and make the Framers be more clear on, this would probably be the one. Obviously they couldn't have foreseen particular questions like drug use or abortion, but we've currently got a system where the interstate commerce clause is used as a necessary loophole for the feds to deal with whatever they need to deal with, even if it's not necessarily all that focused on interstate commerce. That's not a bad thing, per se, but it's very easily abused and should probably be expanded on.
-The population of the United States has increased by a factor of eighty from the signing of the Constitution. Quantity, as we know, really is its own quality, and maybe there are areas where something that worked in a small country doesn't work so well today. I don't know; let's talk about it.
-Voting systems. 'Nuff said. Let's try not to cause a flamewar with this, shall we?

The purpose of this isn't necessarily to create an end-product full proposed Constitution redo, although goodness knows we have enough political junkies who might take a crack at writing them from scratch, including myself, and those are certainly more than welcome to make their appearances. Rather, the point is to discuss what works, what doesn't, and what could work better. It's about the journey- it has to be, since I don't think we'll ever come up with a destination.

The way I see it, the main problem is not with the Constitution itself, but the people interpreting and enforcing it.

Most of the constitution is written with relatively broad language, allowing it to be relevant as the times change. However, any power that can be used for good can also be used for bad ends as well. Looser language allows one to levy punishment on clearly destructive or toxic acts even if they aren't explicitly illegal, but also allows those acts with good intentions and outcomes to be punishable as well. Let's consider the current religion in government debate. Who gets to determine what qualifies as religious endorsement? More importantly, who gets to decide what qualifies as a real religion? Do the Jedi and Flying Spaghetti Monster people get the same consideration as Christianity or any of the other "major" religions? What if it's a belief that only 5 people in some backwards town have? Does it mean their beliefs are less important, that their ideas mean objectively less that the ideas of others? What about laws that go against some religions and not others? Is that showing favoritism? And what about atheism? Practically, how is it any different from any other system of belief? Because they don't have a deity? Many religions don't have a true deity or deities. Because it uses "real" science? The truth is subjective, and very often hotly debated (think global warming). I could go on for hours.

As for the electoral college, I no longer see why it needs to exist. The voting system itself could be made a bit more accurate with a ranked voting system of some sort, but I doubt the outcome would change very much.

Political parties are a form of assembly. You can't really enact legislation against them without massive collateral damage to other "good" types of assembly. Because really, who gets to define what a political party is?

I see separation of powers as a way to contain corruption. The federal government can override anything from a more localized government, but can only act within a few explicit areas, and nothing else. These few things are supposed to be all that is needed to hold the country together. States get some powers of their own, being different from the federal government, allowing them to create more specific rules for a smaller area, but not being able to do anything aside from what is explicitly given to them. Then there are the laws below the state level, which I will refer to as local laws. Every power not explicitly given to the federal or state levels is reserved for the local governments, and anything not covered by those is left up to the people (individuals and private property rules). This system is supposed to keep the power on a smaller level, where it is easier for the people to keep a check on it. If people don't like it, failing to get someone better in office, they could move somewhere with more favorable laws. Having all that power on a national level would mean that you cannot escape it. Then again, what is "explicit" can also be stretched and molded ('tis the problem with any language, to be ambiguous). So the problem is, once again, how to get people who won't try to grab too much power and overstep their boundaries when it isn't needed? Hell, who get's to decide when or if it is needed at all?

And if all else fails, revolution is encouraged.



tl;dr, it's not the system so much as it is the people running the system. And if the people won't keep the government in line, you can't really expect them to keep themselves in line but for so long.

But on the other hand, if the people revolt, who's going to ensure that the new government won't be just as bad or worse than the previous one? I don't think any society said to themselves "These people want to sell us into slavery. We should totally make them our leaders!". Bad people rise to power either through force or deception. So, how do you keep the people from being deceived? How do you ensure protection from those who are naturally charismatic, and can convince people to do anything?

[Zrk2]

Let's write us a Zrk2's Bill of Rights, Draft One, shall we?

1. All persons residing in the USA shall have the right to freely express their opinions without constraint or limitation, except in such cases where they have previously agreed in writing not to do so.

2. All persons residing within the USA shall have the right to freely travel between the states without any restrictions, unless said restrictions are terms of bail or probation.

3. All persons residing in the USA shall have the right to own property, provided they pay taxes and do not use it to exert undue influence upon the lives of others.

4. Any citizen of the USA may hold any office once they have attained their age of majority.

5. No branch of government may force a person to either undertake, or not undertake a medical procedure. Abortion is a medical procedure.

6. All persons residing in the USA shall have the right to possess firearms provided they do not have a felony conviction and do not have a history of mental illness.

7. All citizens of the USA may vote in all elections, provided their primary residence is within the jurisdiction of said election, and they are not currently in prison.

8. The president of the USA shall be elected by a simple majority of the popular vote.

9. All political parties, or organizations approximating political parties, are illegal. A political party is defined as a large voting bloc who share the same values, hold meetings (both formal and/or informal) and who campaign on the same platform.

10. The press shall have the right to publish all news as it occurs, unless a judge has specifically forbidden it, and provided in writing a detailed explanation of why it may not be published at the time of the first printing. These explanations are only valid if they provide a reasonable expectation of gross bodily harm to a person residing in the USA or endanger citizens of the USA currently abroad.

11. All persons residing in the USA shall have the right to a fair and speedy trial, either by a judge or jury of their peers, as the law dictates.

12. All persons residing in the USA shall have the right to absolute privacy of thought, possessions, beliefs, and everything else unless a warrant is granted for the search of a specific item. The warrant must cite a reasonable cause to believe that said item is involved in, or supporting a, crime. All warrants must be issued by a judge.

13. All persons residing in the USA shall have the freedom to practice whatever religion they choose, or none at all.

14. "Marriage" is no longer a recognized state of being by the state. Instead a civil union is available to persons who desire it, regardless of age, race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, or any other similar factors.

15. Congressional terms shall be limited to three terms as a congressman, three terms as a senator, and two terms as President.

16. All persons shall have the freedom to assemble and discuss any and all issues.

17. Church and state shall remain absolutely separate. Churches shall not receives exemptions for anything which is not immediately and specifically, and directly linked to their charitable activities.

18. All state laws shall be directly subordinate to federal law in the case that said laws overlap.

19. Congress shall have the power to take measures necessary, including, but not limited to, taxation and legislation, to enforce these rights.

I imagine I missed several obvious things, but that'll do as a start.

[Darvi]

But if parties are outlawed how are we gonna celebrate Christmas؟

[Zrk2]

Celebrations.

[kaijyuu]

I'd like a "no act can be considered criminal if no victim can be determined" clause in there somewhere. Wouldn't change much, but for some bullshit laws (like anti-sodomy ones), it'd require some hefty logical gymnastics to establish a victim (for that example, "corrupting the children" or somesuch bullshit might work).

[Tellemurius]

9. All political parties, or organizations approximating political parties, are illegal. A political party is defined as a large voting bloc who share the same values, hold meetings (both formal and/or informal) and who campaign on the same platform.

I just can't see this working out, this would in line break your first rule on freedom of expression.

[Zrk2]

I considered that, but I couldn't find any better answer, wait a minute. I've got something! And a couple others I missed.

Zrk2's Bill of Rights, Draft Two

1. All persons residing in the USA shall have the right to freely express their opinions without constraint or limitation, except in such cases where they have previously agreed in writing not to do so.

2. All persons residing within the USA shall have the right to freely travel between the states without any restrictions, unless said restrictions are terms of bail or probation.

3. All persons residing in the USA shall have the right to own property, provided they pay taxes and do not use it to exert undue influence upon the lives of others.

4. Any citizen of the USA may hold any office once they have attained their age of majority.

5. No branch of government may force a person to either undertake, or not undertake a medical procedure. Abortion is a medical procedure.

6. All persons residing in the USA shall have the right to possess firearms provided they do not have a felony conviction and do not have a history of mental illness.

7. All citizens of the USA may vote in all elections, provided their primary residence is within the jurisdiction of said election, and they are not currently in prison.

8. The president of the USA shall be elected by a simple majority of the popular vote.

9. Political ads shall be banned during election season. Instead, all persons running for the position, with a petition for them to run bearing at least 100 signatures, shall take part in a series of publicly televised, radio broadcasted, and published in all other possible forms of media.

10. The press shall have the right to publish all news as it occurs, unless a judge has specifically forbidden it, and provided in writing a detailed explanation of why it may not be published at the time of the first printing. These explanations are only valid if they provide a reasonable expectation of gross bodily harm to a person residing in the USA or endanger citizens of the USA currently abroad.

11. All persons residing in the USA shall have the right to a fair and speedy trial, either by a judge or jury of their peers, as the law dictates.

12. All persons residing in the USA shall have the right to absolute privacy of thought, possessions, beliefs, and everything else unless a warrant is granted for the search of a specific item. The warrant must cite a reasonable cause to believe that said item is involved in, or supporting a, crime. All warrants must be issued by a judge.

13. All persons residing in the USA shall have the freedom to practice whatever religion they choose, or none at all.

14. "Marriage" is no longer a recognized state of being by the state. Instead a civil union is available to persons who desire it, regardless of age, race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, or any other similar factors.

15. Congressional terms shall be limited to three terms as a congressman, three terms as a senator, and two terms as President.

16. All persons shall have the freedom to assemble and discuss any and all issues.

17. Church and state shall remain absolutely separate. Churches shall not receives exemptions for anything which is not immediately and specifically, and directly linked to their charitable activities.

18. All state laws shall be directly subordinate to federal law in the case that said laws overlap.

19. Congress shall have the power to take measures necessary, including, but not limited to, taxation and legislation, to enforce these rights.

20. Money is not speech. Money is property.

21. All persons shall have the right to be free from discrimination based on age, gender, sexual orientation, religion ( or lack thereof) or other irrelevant factors.

22. There are no victimless crimes. Thus if a victim cannot be readily demonstrated, there has been no crime. A victim must be directly harmed or disadvantaged by the act to qualify as a victim.