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[Owlbread]

I am for sensible racial talents. Elves are agile, they're good archers. Trolls are strong, they're good miners. Antmen have minimal personality and will, they rarely go on break and do work faster. I don't want random things, like goblins are bad at weaving, gremlins are good at mechanics, frogmen are good fishers...
Different races should also have drawbacks, also sensible. And then there's the social ramifications, both internal (dwarven haulers see trolls taking their work and grow resentful) and external (the Mountainhomes don't like you as much because you have goblin citizens), especially since dwarves are typically xenophobic.

Very good indeed. You could even start a war with your home civilisation because of your tendency to take on goblin workers and such.

I thought maybe antmen could tunnel very quickly through stone and soil, far faster than any dwarf, but they will rarely leave stone behind. This means that you have to use legendary Dwarven miners if you want ore, but you can use antmen if you just want an area cleared quickly without excess stone. They also wouldn't do stuff like alert you to new discoveries of gems and such, they just dig right on through. Such things mean nothing to them.

Stuff like frogmen being good fishers isn't too random though, that makes sense, or something like an amphibian man or whatever. Maybe they could be good for removing swarms of flies.

[assasin]

How trustworthy would mercenaries be? If they were outnumbered or offered a whole ton of wealth would they betray you?

Also, when the war arc is added in and you could travel across the map should it be possible to hire out your dwarves as mercenaries?

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

Also, when the war arc is added in and you could travel across the map should it be possible to hire out your dwarves as mercenaries?

So that when you attack, they turn upon the ones who hired them to strike from the inside?  That would work.

[Owlbread]

How trustworthy would mercenaries be? If they were outnumbered or offered a whole ton of wealth would they betray you?

Also, when the war arc is added in and you could travel across the map should it be possible to hire out your dwarves as mercenaries?

It could depend on the race of the mercenaries and their history with you. For instance, goblins may be more likely to betray you than elves, but if you've been at war with the elves in the past and caused terrible hardship for them, maybe they'd be more likely to abandon you than the goblins. Maybe some creatures have unbreakable oaths.

I think as well that you should be able to hire out your Dwarves to allow them to gain experience, but not to your enemies.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I thought maybe antmen could tunnel very quickly through stone and soil, far faster than any dwarf, but they will rarely leave stone behind. This means that you have to use legendary Dwarven miners if you want ore, but you can use antmen if you just want an area cleared quickly without excess stone. They also wouldn't do stuff like alert you to new discoveries of gems and such, they just dig right on through. Such things mean nothing to them.

Stuff like frogmen being good fishers isn't too random though, that makes sense, or something like an amphibian man or whatever. Maybe they could be good for removing swarms of flies.

Why and why?

I think you should be able to hire your dwarves to enemies, but it shouldn't be a good idea...

[Owlbread]

I thought maybe antmen could tunnel very quickly through stone and soil, far faster than any dwarf, but they will rarely leave stone behind. This means that you have to use legendary Dwarven miners if you want ore, but you can use antmen if you just want an area cleared quickly without excess stone. They also wouldn't do stuff like alert you to new discoveries of gems and such, they just dig right on through. Such things mean nothing to them.

Stuff like frogmen being good fishers isn't too random though, that makes sense, or something like an amphibian man or whatever. Maybe they could be good for removing swarms of flies.

Why and why?

I think you should be able to hire your dwarves to enemies, but it shouldn't be a good idea...

Maybe antmen aren't as bright as Dwarves but they're good tunnelers. Frogmen could catch lots of flies at once with their long tongues. Not only are they efficient aquatic haulers, but they also take away nasty swarms of flies from your food stockpiles too.

The antmen thing might make life easier for players too who find excess stone to be a bit of a headache. Just hire antmen to do the work for you, or maybe you would have to go via their queen.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I thought maybe antmen could tunnel very quickly through stone and soil, far faster than any dwarf, but they will rarely leave stone behind. This means that you have to use legendary Dwarven miners if you want ore, but you can use antmen if you just want an area cleared quickly without excess stone. They also wouldn't do stuff like alert you to new discoveries of gems and such, they just dig right on through. Such things mean nothing to them.

Stuff like frogmen being good fishers isn't too random though, that makes sense, or something like an amphibian man or whatever. Maybe they could be good for removing swarms of flies.

Why and why?

I think you should be able to hire your dwarves to enemies, but it shouldn't be a good idea...

Maybe antmen aren't as bright as Dwarves but they're good tunnelers. Frogmen could catch lots of flies at once with their long tongues. Not only are they efficient aquatic haulers, but they also take away nasty swarms of flies from your food stockpiles too.
[/quite]
I can buy antmen being less bright than dwarves, but unless they're digging with their jaws they wouldn't necessarily be faster diggers than dwarves. And how would frogmens' tounges help their fishing, and since even larger frogs IRL don't survive on nothing but bugs why would larger frogmen?

The antmen thing might make life easier for players too who find excess stone to be a bit of a headache. Just hire antmen to do the work for you, or maybe you would have to go via their queen.

So? If dwarves could eat tattered clothes it would reduce the refuse piles needed but that doesn't make sense.

[Owlbread]

I can buy antmen being less bright than dwarves, but unless they're digging with their jaws they wouldn't necessarily be faster diggers than dwarves. And how would frogmens' tounges help their fishing, and since even larger frogs IRL don't survive on nothing but bugs why would larger frogmen?

So? If dwarves could eat tattered clothes it would reduce the refuse piles needed but that doesn't make sense.

You have misunderstood me several times. I said that frogmen who work for your dwarves could help clear up fly swarms. I did not say that would help them with their fishing. Some frogs are known to eat small fish too, but it's rare. That's why I started talking about amphibian men who are a bit more ambiguous. I suppose though, frogmen could still fish pretty well, it's not like they'd want to eat them though. The reason why is that they're amphibious and could stay in the water for extended periods of time, unlike your dwarves. You'd be better off using them as aquatic haulers or scouts or something though. Guards for your underwater fortress.

Furthermore, my image of an antman is of a creature without much brains, unbreakable loyalty to its queen and  an insane work ethic. They would work harder than the most assiduous dwarf, and could dig with greater efficiency owing to their natural strength (remember how strong ants are) and agility. If you struggle to understand what I'm trying to say here, if you ever see ants going about their business, they're almost mechanical. Think of how a spider or similar arthropod operates in a way that's almost mechanical to our eyes, but is just a product of a brain utterly dedicated to what it's doing. Now do you see why antmen could dig faster than a dwarf? The comment about the refuse piles is also frivolous and has no bearing here.

I'm suggesting that the difference between antmen and dwarves is that antmen are diggers, dwarves are miners. Antmen can dig really quickly and efficiently, dwarves mine; they dig more slowly, but produce more stone. If you want to reduce the amount of stone you are going to end up with, like if you have to mine a 20x20 room full of gabbro, use antmen. Antmen would also be unable to smooth and decorate stone, for they are coarse and unenlightened folk.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I can buy antmen being less bright than dwarves, but unless they're digging with their jaws they wouldn't necessarily be faster diggers than dwarves. And how would frogmens' tounges help their fishing, and since even larger frogs IRL don't survive on nothing but bugs why would larger frogmen?

So? If dwarves could eat tattered clothes it would reduce the refuse piles needed but that doesn't make sense.

You have misunderstood me several times. I said that frogmen who work for your dwarves could help clear up fly swarms. I did not say that would help them with their fishing. Some frogs are known to eat small fish too, but it's rare. That's why I started talking about amphibian men who are a bit more ambiguous. I suppose though, frogmen could still fish pretty well, it's not like they'd want to eat them though. The reason why is that they're amphibious and could stay in the water for extended periods of time, unlike your dwarves. You'd be better off using them as aquatic haulers or scouts or something though. Guards for your underwater fortress.
[/quite]
You brought this up in the middle of a discussion on frogmen being fishers. I asked about fishing, you replied with flycatching and aquatic hauling. I was pretending my actual post was related to your comment.

Furthermore, my image of an antman is of a creature without much brains, unbreakable loyalty to its queen and  an insane work ethic. They would work harder than the most assiduous dwarf, and could dig with greater efficiency owing to their natural strength (remember how strong ants are) and agility. If you struggle to understand what I'm trying to say here, if you ever see ants going about their business, they're almost mechanical. Think of how a spider or similar arthropod operates in a way that's almost mechanical to our eyes, but is just a product of a brain utterly dedicated to what it's doing. Now do you see why antmen could dig faster than a dwarf? The comment about the refuse piles is also frivolous and has no bearing here.

I see antmen as more like ultra-dwarves: Focused, loyal, and while not stone-dumb, not all that bright. And while ants are strong for their size, A. Part of that is because of their size, and B. Antmen are still pretty small.

I'm suggesting that the difference between antmen and dwarves is that antmen are diggers, dwarves are miners. Antmen can dig really quickly and efficiently, dwarves mine; they dig more slowly, but produce more stone. If you want to reduce the amount of stone you are going to end up with, like if you have to mine a 20x20 room full of gabbro, use antmen. Antmen would also be unable to smooth and decorate stone, for they are coarse and unenlightened folk.

Why? Why must the rules be different for these different races? Should dwarves be unable to work wood? Should elves be unable to work metal? Not in my opinion. Races should play by the same laws of physics and such. Antmen might not know how to smooth stone, but if taught there's no reason they couldn't get legendary skill.

[Owlbread]

I was going more by the idea that ant men were a bit different to the likes of elves and dwarves because they're animal men. I thought smoothing stuff and engraving was a bit beyond them (they're very primitive), I'm not "defying the laws of physics". I'm also not talking about elves or anything else in this case, just very primitive creatures.

You are also making an interesting mistake. Well, firstly you've ignored the stuff I said about ant men operating like little machines while still being primitive which I think justifies the great digger/crap miner idea, but you've also said that ant men are very strong for their size, then disregarded what would happen if they were made bigger. If you make said ant man able to lift 50 times his own body weight, then despite being about 20 000 centimetres cubed in size, he could almost lift a fully grown gorilla. That's pretty good. If we say each centimetre of their size weighs something, that is.

[assasin]

Isnt the whole point of animal men that they'r generic enough to be randomly generated?

I wonder what would happen if minor races  that ussually survive by working with major ones instead of living on their own are added. cant think of many suitable for dwarves but elves could have centaurs and goblins already have trolls.

[Putnam]

Isnt the whole point of animal men that they'r generic enough to be randomly generated?

They're not randomly generated. Every single animal person is defined in the raws.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I was going more by the idea that ant men were a bit different to the likes of elves and dwarves because they're animal men. I thought smoothing stuff and engraving was a bit beyond them (they're very primitive), I'm not "defying the laws of physics". I'm also not talking about elves or anything else in this case, just very primitive creatures.

You are also making an interesting mistake. Well, firstly you've ignored the stuff I said about ant men operating like little machines while still being primitive which I think justifies the great digger/crap miner idea, but you've also said that ant men are very strong for their size, then disregarded what would happen if they were made bigger. If you make said ant man able to lift 50 times his own body weight, then despite being about 20 000 centimetres cubed in size, he could almost lift a fully grown gorilla. That's pretty good. If we say each centimetre of their size weighs something, that is.

I'm not ignoring what you said, I'm just disagreeing with it. I thought I made that clear last post?
Anyways, part of why ants are so strong for their size is that they're small. Strength is, to keep it simple, proportional on the square of the length, while weight is obviously proportional to its cube. This means that while a two-foot antman would be 2,300 times as strong as a quarter-inch ant, it would be over 110,000 times as heavy. Okay, that's simplified, but the general idea is there. It's why everything's better at small scales.
Anyways, the "primitive culture" wouldn't affect elves/antmen/whatever who have dwarven training, because they'd be trained by the "advanced" dwarves. That was my point.

Isnt the whole point of animal men that they'r generic enough to be randomly generated?

They're not randomly generated. Every single animal person is defined in the raws.

For now, at least. I think this is intended to be changed eventually.

[Owlbread]

I was going more by the idea that ant men were a bit different to the likes of elves and dwarves because they're animal men. I thought smoothing stuff and engraving was a bit beyond them (they're very primitive), I'm not "defying the laws of physics". I'm also not talking about elves or anything else in this case, just very primitive creatures.

You are also making an interesting mistake. Well, firstly you've ignored the stuff I said about ant men operating like little machines while still being primitive which I think justifies the great digger/crap miner idea, but you've also said that ant men are very strong for their size, then disregarded what would happen if they were made bigger. If you make said ant man able to lift 50 times his own body weight, then despite being about 20 000 centimetres cubed in size, he could almost lift a fully grown gorilla. That's pretty good. If we say each centimetre of their size weighs something, that is.

I'm not ignoring what you said, I'm just disagreeing with it. I thought I made that clear last post?
Anyways, part of why ants are so strong for their size is that they're small. Strength is, to keep it simple, proportional on the square of the length, while weight is obviously proportional to its cube. This means that while a two-foot antman would be 2,300 times as strong as a quarter-inch ant, it would be over 110,000 times as heavy. Okay, that's simplified, but the general idea is there. It's why everything's better at small scales.
Anyways, the "primitive culture" wouldn't affect elves/antmen/whatever who have dwarven training, because they'd be trained by the "advanced" dwarves. That was my point.

No, you didn't. I was confused because you just didn't address the stuff about them being machine-like at all. I suppose the biggest question is just how sentient antmen really are.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I was going more by the idea that ant men were a bit different to the likes of elves and dwarves because they're animal men. I thought smoothing stuff and engraving was a bit beyond them (they're very primitive), I'm not "defying the laws of physics". I'm also not talking about elves or anything else in this case, just very primitive creatures.

You are also making an interesting mistake. Well, firstly you've ignored the stuff I said about ant men operating like little machines while still being primitive which I think justifies the great digger/crap miner idea, but you've also said that ant men are very strong for their size, then disregarded what would happen if they were made bigger. If you make said ant man able to lift 50 times his own body weight, then despite being about 20 000 centimetres cubed in size, he could almost lift a fully grown gorilla. That's pretty good. If we say each centimetre of their size weighs something, that is.

I'm not ignoring what you said, I'm just disagreeing with it. I thought I made that clear last post?
Anyways, part of why ants are so strong for their size is that they're small. Strength is, to keep it simple, proportional on the square of the length, while weight is obviously proportional to its cube. This means that while a two-foot antman would be 2,300 times as strong as a quarter-inch ant, it would be over 110,000 times as heavy. Okay, that's simplified, but the general idea is there. It's why everything's better at small scales.
Anyways, the "primitive culture" wouldn't affect elves/antmen/whatever who have dwarven training, because they'd be trained by the "advanced" dwarves. That was my point.

No, you didn't. I was confused because you just didn't address the stuff about them being machine-like at all. I suppose the biggest question is just how sentient antmen really are.

Well, first off:

I see antmen as more like ultra-dwarves: Focused, loyal, and while not stone-dumb, not all that bright.

Second off, I think antmen are about as sentient as any other animalman, just with less individuality.