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[Darvi]

Anyways...we discussing Zanzetkuken? I like the "powerful boss turns into weak but tries-hard PC" idea.

I wouldn't say no if he gets rewritten in such a way that he isn't the walking manifestation of wankery. In fact we could already build up towards that end by just dismissing him before we even get to fight him, in a "who is this guy and why does he want to fight us?" way. Then he can have character development or something something.

[Neonivek]

As in throughout the game he shows up to be awsome and save the day but everyone just ignores him, or rather doesn't notice him, and moves on

Only to get to the point where he challenges the party to a fight and everyone is like "Who?"

That also works. His moves in boss form should be over dramatic.

Then of course he gets defeated and transforms into his pathetic PC form.

[Darvi]

Well, pathetic is a bit of an overstatement. Let's say more realistic.

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

I wouldn't say no if he gets rewritten in such a way that he isn't the walking manifestation of wankery. In fact we could already build up towards that end by just dismissing him before we even get to fight him, in a "who is this guy and why does he want to fight us?" way. Then he can have character development or something something.

Wasn't there a discussion of armor that levels with a player somewhere in this thread?  If it is applied to Zanzetkuken's armor and weapons, then place the ability to use sunlance at a late level, then you could encounter him at any point, with his level being the average of the PC's levels.

[Neonivek]

Well, pathetic is a bit of an overstatement. Let's say more realistic.

It is a parody of Magus and other party members who often become bosses

And how they will be super pumped capable of often just outright murdering you.

Yet the second he joins you he loses all that power.

Pathetic is by far an understatement for the power he lost. In NPC form Zan could take the entire party solo without breaking a sweat. In PC form there are several party members who could take him down in a single turn.

Sure he is no slouch compared to any other party member... but this is like Ares being reduced to being a highly skilled swordsmen. It is a rather embarassing demotion.

If it is applied to Zanzetkuken's armor and weapons, then place the ability to use sunlance at a late level, then you could encounter him at any point, with his level being the average of the PC's levels.

The key is that the item you get in your inventory was the one you used as a NPC boss (aka your form that is many times stronger then anyone in the party could hope to be) and thus way out of the range of any power you could ever reach. If you look at its stats it will have exagerated numbers.

Thus the key to using your old NPC equipment isn't to get stronger but to bring it closer to you by ruining it.

You can have other weapons but your "Ruined Boss Equipment" is simply your ultimate Infinity +1 stuff.

[Darvi]

Why do you even spell that name that way? It just irks me every time I see it and pushes me every so closer down the slippery slope into grammar nazism.

[Furtuka]

This whole conversation is made up of people missing each others points -_-

[Darvi]

We have points?

[Reudh]

This whole conversation is made up of people missing each others points -_-

Oh aye...

How about we nerf Sunlance so it's like Graviga / Gravira / Demi in the FF series, in that it does a percentage of enemy hp? (75 / 50 / 25 in FF)

Against bosses it would have no use, but it's extremely useful for taking out lategame high hp mobs. That makes it more balanced, yes? Than simply a gargantuan damage move in a slowasmud character. Hmm.

How about, as a party member, as a swordsman, Zanzy has less-than-average skills, say... comparable to Darvi/Ursula/Uriel stats but knocked down a tier in some areas. When he transforms (it can be triggered after some conditions have been met in battle; there's a 'rage' bar that can be used in YEM that fills when dealing and taking damage. Perhaps at full 100% rage, Zanzetzuken activates his dragon form, giving him a new skillset (including the nerfed Sunlance, among others) and a nice buff to his stats.

Does that sound fair and balanced?

[Furtuka]

As far as I can see Darvi and Derm's issue isn't just with his stats, it's mainly that his character is just written rather clichely. I kinda have to agree with them on that there...

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

Sure he is no slouch compared to any other party member... but this is like Ares being reduced to being a highly skilled swordsmen. It is a rather embarassing demotion.

That is ridiculously close to what I was thinking.  And probably similar to the power of 'me' before and after.

If it is applied to Zanzetkuken's armor and weapons, then place the ability to use sunlance at a late level, then you could encounter him at any point, with his level being the average of the PC's levels.

The key is that the item you get in your inventory was the one you used as a NPC boss (aka your form that is many times stronger then anyone in the party could hope to be) and thus way out of the range of any power you could ever reach. If you look at its stats it will have exagerated numbers.

Thus the key to using your old NPC equipment isn't to get stronger but to bring it closer to you by ruining it.

You can have other weapons but your "Ruined Boss Equipment" is simply your ultimate Infinity +1 stuff.

Makes sense.  Derm could be the one who breaks it.  The equipment could still be unequipable and therefore have a minimum level (if you fight at a really low level), so he is forced to use other equipment until that point is reached.

This whole conversation is made up of people missing each others points -_-

Oh aye...

How about we nerf Sunlance so it's like Graviga / Gravira / Demi in the FF series, in that it does a percentage of enemy hp? (75 / 50 / 25 in FF)

Against bosses it would have no use, but it's extremely useful for taking out lategame high hp mobs. That makes it more balanced, yes? Than simply a gargantuan damage move in a slowasmud character. Hmm.

I was just about to say that.

How about, as a party member, as a swordsman, Zanzy has less-than-average skills, say... comparable to Darvi/Ursula/Uriel stats but knocked down a tier in some areas. When he transforms (it can be triggered after some conditions have been met in battle; there's a 'rage' bar that can be used in YEM that fills when dealing and taking damage. Perhaps at full 100% rage, Zanzetzuken activates his dragon form, giving him a new skillset (including the nerfed Sunlance, among others) and a nice buff to his stats.

Does that sound fair and balanced?

Yeah.  When the 'rage meter' reaches a certain point, he could change back.

[Neonivek]

Yeah even I wasn't suggesting his stats as a PC need to be weaker

The key is... that before he joins the party he is clearly an exagerated super boss made to be more awsome then anything else.

Which I wanted to turn into a joke by making the fact that he is MUUUCH weaker as a PC (compared to his NPC form) that he just seems pathetic now by comparison.

This is about story and humor Reudh, not really about PC balance.

Though yeah the Sunlance being useful for ordinary enemies I have no problem with. I'd have no problem if he had a one hit kill move that only worked on ordinary mobs.

[Furtuka]

Though it's kinda confusing since we're not all in agreement as to how blatantly a parody the game will be

[Darvi]

Aye. It's not even the fact that I have a beef with that kind of thing, but when we're going to make a game we should make sure that all the characters are more or less usable and interesting and not just... tacked on.

Also Reudh, that sounds good. Tack on an appropriate MP cost, and we can even give him an upgraded version called Sunlance or something.


So basically what happens is, Zanzy is this guy who regularly turns up for whatever reason, but gets brushed off by the PCs every time. Once he has enough, he engages a challenging boss fight after which the PCs reluctantly acknowledge his strength and ask him to join. At which point he ironically reveals that he no longer is as tough as he used to be.
It also makes sense that Derm would be more aggravated at him, at that point he wouldn't have been in the party for long enough to get used to him.

[Neonivek]

Though it's kinda confusing since we're not all in agreement as to how blatantly a parody the game will be

It is kinda both straight and parody at the same time.

Mostly a product of how silly the concept of the game is.