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Author Topic: You're Islanders: Care to Offer Suggestions?  (Read 8262 times)

Parsely

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Re: You're Islanders: Care to Offer Suggestions?
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2012, 12:50:45 am »

An easy way to influence the different tribes would be to start them off with the things they would need to set them on a certain path. Ex: If you want a player tribe to be warlike, you could start them off with basic weapons and seafaring capabilities near a defenceless NPC tribe that is known for its bountiful harvests. Kind of a crude example, but I suppose you get the idea. A bit too broad perhaps.
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mesor

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Re: You're Islanders: Care to Offer Suggestions?
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2012, 12:52:26 am »

Near the NPC is probably a bit much it would give that player far big a boost to early but that is a good idea other then you should probably let the player make the choice of what kind of tribe he wants unless he chooses to let it be a surprise.
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IronyOwl

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Re: You're Islanders: Care to Offer Suggestions?
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2012, 01:02:24 am »

I wasn't really following the old one, and my advice sounds considerably different from what you're getting, but I do have some insight on these subjects. Very long-winded insight.

--Encourage fishing and other historically accurate Polynesian behaviors. Fishing comes to mind first.
--Preserve realism.
I would be very, very wary of these two. "Realistic" and "Historically accurate" tend to be those sorts of terms that are either there for no good reason or being misused in place of more specific goals.

So, in short, why realistic? What's so good about it? What parts of it are you interested in? Saying you want something to be "realistic" really isn't that different from saying you want it to be "like Star Wars." The only difference is that realism fanboys are less likely to realize they've got a problem.

Similar with "historically accurate." This you've got at least a bit more cause for since it's your theme, but you should still clarify just what "Polynesian" means.

--Reduce complexity. #1 goal here.
A common problem.

The best general advice I can give you is to start simple and differentiate along common mechanics, rather than just throwing everything you can think of together. This goes double if "realism" is a primary design goal.

So for instance, rather than determining how eggs vs fruit should work as a food source individually, thinking about how common fruit is and what shape eggs are and such, it's best to treat them as the same underlying mechanic, then add simple, meaningful differences if desired. Maybe fruit is more bountiful but riskier, or eggs are better but require actually setting up chicken farms. The result should be that everything is easier to follow and perform, and you're not tempted to make stupid decisions because they'll affect all food gathering (or crafting, or whatever) rather than just squeezing cactus juice during high tide.


Beyond that, I notice everyone's listing about ten different things each turn. That implies that you're rolling for ten different things per player per turn, but even if that's not the case you're still processing them. That's no good.

Consider rewarding or at least allowing everyone to clump their workers together more. Instead of building huts, farming food, making spears, picking fruit, hunting clams, butchering turtles, and tending to children each and every turn, what if they built huts and farmed food one turn, then built spears and farmed food another, then butchered turtles and tended the children next? Same results, more or less, but less processing each turn.

As for how to encourage that, not sure. You could just limit everyone to a certain number of actions per turn, or eliminate the utility of creating, say, a single adze, or offer bonuses the more tribe members are involved in something at one time. I'm not entirely clear on your system, so this one's a bit harder for me to offer specifics on.

--Fix balance (see below)

I found that all players chose similar choices with their traits. How could I modify them so there's less "good/bad" choices? I want the tribes or clans or whatever to be a lot different from the start.
Looking over the trait list and starting players, it seems like "traits" are more like embark profiles. In this case, there's probably a lot of similarity for two reasons.

One, animals give you something you can't get later, while canoes and crafts take away something you can make later. There's nothing about how one acquires dogs or chickens if you don't have any to begin with, whereas it's easy to imagine building a canoe at some point in the future.

Two, concrete, obvious bonuses or penalties tend to be more significant than vague or numerical ones. Starting with a breeding pair of dogs gives your tribe access to dogs, for instance, while being isolated... doesn't really cost you much, and starting with fewer people just means you'll be slower at the start. Trying to balance "Your tribe has dogs" with "-4 people" is kind of hard to do; most people will go for the dogs.

So if you want tribes more differentiated, you've got at least two options.

The first is to redo traits to something other than starting gear, like persistent bonuses to something. This might be more complex than you're going for, though.

The second is to limit numeric and yes-or-no benefits to being traded with each other. For instance, instead of spending points, let players decide what one or two animals they want a breeding pair of, then decide separately whether they want to start out with extra knives and no canoes or two canoes but no pots or knives or an extra hat but no pants.

Finally, players tend to try to specialize away from each other- so long as there's not a good reason otherwise- if they're interacting with each other in meaningful ways. You're kind of stuck here at present, because you don't want them having contact immediately, but if they knew that someone else was taking a pair of dogs, someone they'd be able to trade with later, they'd be more willing to take a pair of goats at the start instead.
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: You're Islanders: Care to Offer Suggestions?
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2012, 06:27:02 am »

Maybe you should reduce the punishment for failing rolls for minor events?
It's not that I was assigning big penalties for failure, it's that they kept rolling ones...
I might have to scrap the RtD base altogether.

Quote
And let people choose a few basic skills to have for their group to give them a small bonus in some areas to improve odds a bit.
Sensible. I was just letting everyone do everything.

A good way to encourage fishing is to allow multiple types of it. Ie, coastal fishing, spear fishing(requires no cano) or deep sea fishing. That way you focus it a bit.
Alright, I'll keep this in mind.

Quote
To increase difference between clans, you can do a multitude of things. Mostly, this'll be allowing options that don't change goods but behaviour of the clan. (Warrior tribe, pascifists, fishermen, ....) Giving small bonusses and maybe even some items.
Since I've decided to scrap the Roll to Dodge base, this should be easier.

[/quote]
As for complexity, maybe allow certain often repeated actions to have a continuus production, and then just roll to see if something bad/good happens.
[/quote]
Maybe.

I wasn't really following the old one, and my advice sounds considerably different from what you're getting, but I do have some insight on these subjects. Very long-winded insight.
It's good tô have multiple opinions.

Quote
--Encourage fishing and other historically accurate Polynesian behaviors. Fishing comes to mind first.
--Preserve realism.
I would be very, very wary of these two. "Realistic" and "Historically accurate" tend to be those sorts of terms that are either there for no good reason or being misused in place of more specific goals.

So, in short, why realistic? What's so good about it? What parts of it are you interested in? Saying you want something to be "realistic" really isn't that different from saying you want it to be "like Star Wars." The only difference is that realism fanboys are less likely to realize they've got a problem.

Similar with "historically accurate." This you've got at least a bit more cause for since it's your theme, but you should still clarify just what "Polynesian" means.
Hm...Hadn't thought of it this way...

Quote
--Reduce complexity. #1 goal here.
A common problem.

The best general advice I can give you is to start simple and differentiate along common mechanics, rather than just throwing everything you can think of together. This goes double if "realism" is a primary design goal.

So for instance, rather than determining how eggs vs fruit should work as a food source individually, thinking about how common fruit is and what shape eggs are and such, it's best to treat them as the same underlying mechanic, then add simple, meaningful differences if desired. Maybe fruit is more bountiful but riskier, or eggs are better but require actually setting up chicken farms. The result should be that everything is easier to follow and perform, and you're not tempted to make stupid decisions because they'll affect all food gathering (or crafting, or whatever) rather than just squeezing cactus juice during high tide.

Beyond that, I notice everyone's listing about ten different things each turn. That implies that you're rolling for ten different things per player per turn, but even if that's not the case you're still processing them. That's no good.

Consider rewarding or at least allowing everyone to clump their workers together more. Instead of building huts, farming food, making spears, picking fruit, hunting clams, butchering turtles, and tending to children each and every turn, what if they built huts and farmed food one turn, then built spears and farmed food another, then butchered turtles and tended the children next? Same results, more or less, but less processing each turn.

As for how to encourage that, not sure. You could just limit everyone to a certain number of actions per turn, or eliminate the utility of creating, say, a single adze, or offer bonuses the more tribe members are involved in something at one time. I'm not entirely clear on your system, so this one's a bit harder for me to offer specifics on.
Some of these ideas make sense (although I did have pretty much the same system for gathering stuff), but I'm not sure about the "lump everyone together" thing...

Quote
--Fix balance (see below)

I found that all players chose similar choices with their traits. How could I modify them so there's less "good/bad" choices? I want the tribes or clans or whatever to be a lot different from the start.
Looking over the trait list and starting players, it seems like "traits" are more like embark profiles. In this case, there's probably a lot of similarity for two reasons.

One, animals give you something you can't get later, while canoes and crafts take away something you can make later. There's nothing about how one acquires dogs or chickens if you don't have any to begin with, whereas it's easy to imagine building a canoe at some point in the future.

Two, concrete, obvious bonuses or penalties tend to be more significant than vague or numerical ones. Starting with a breeding pair of dogs gives your tribe access to dogs, for instance, while being isolated... doesn't really cost you much, and starting with fewer people just means you'll be slower at the start. Trying to balance "Your tribe has dogs" with "-4 people" is kind of hard to do; most people will go for the dogs.

So if you want tribes more differentiated, you've got at least two options.

The first is to redo traits to something other than starting gear, like persistent bonuses to something. This might be more complex than you're going for, though.

The second is to limit numeric and yes-or-no benefits to being traded with each other. For instance, instead of spending points, let players decide what one or two animals they want a breeding pair of, then decide separately whether they want to start out with extra knives and no canoes or two canoes but no pots or knives or an extra hat but no pants.

Finally, players tend to try to specialize away from each other- so long as there's not a good reason otherwise- if they're interacting with each other in meaningful ways. You're kind of stuck here at present, because you don't want them having contact immediately, but if they knew that someone else was taking a pair of dogs, someone they'd be able to trade with later, they'd be more willing to take a pair of goats at the start instead.
Lots of stuff to think about, time crunch to reply in ATM.

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10ebbor10

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Re: You're Islanders: Care to Offer Suggestions?
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2012, 03:36:10 pm »

Just a question, for actions are you rolling seperatly for every single person, or just once/twice for the entire group?
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: You're Islanders: Care to Offer Suggestions?
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2012, 04:14:06 pm »

Probably once per person, unless that would require an obscene number of rolls.

-----

I've made several rule changes.

Rules which increase complexity:
Skills
Skills deserve to be mentioned twice.
Morale

Rules which reduce complexity:
By default, you start with only a dozen people.
You must buy any livestock; no free chickens, sorry.
Gathering shellfish no longer requires a prier. Merry Christmas.
Many basic tasks no longer require rolls. *cough* eggs *cough* water */cough*
Fire lasts only a couple days.
Critical failures typically won't result in injuries. Merry Christmas.
All food is lumped together.
Bones and leather will be removed.
Once I get around to the full list of wildlife, hunting will be based on rolling on a table.

Other rules changes:
This game will use a d20 system I invented. Unskilled people will typically fail, moderately skilled people succeed most of the time.
Traits are being massively reworked.
Naming individual people will be encouraged.
All but basic similarities to Polynesian culture are removed. Other than adzes, somehow they seem more appropriate than axes.
Fishing is a better source of food than gathering.
Magic should be rarer.
Differences between genders will be based on starting skills.
Children will work more. Merry Christmas. Beware, they have no skills to begin with and will have an extra -2 (1?) to many rolls.
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Caerwyn

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Re: You're Islanders: Care to Offer Suggestions?
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2012, 04:38:05 pm »

Wait. Are we restarting? What's going on? Is the world ending?

DAMMIT!

If we are, would you please let me reserve a slot?
« Last Edit: October 25, 2012, 04:47:52 pm by Caerwyn »
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TopHat

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Re: You're Islanders: Care to Offer Suggestions?
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2012, 05:44:26 pm »

Wait. Are we restarting? What's going on? Is the world ending?

DAMMIT!

If we are, would you please let me reserve a slot?
Ditto.
Also: I like the rule changes. Maybe some skills for the chief decided at start would help differentiate the tribes.
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: You're Islanders: Care to Offer Suggestions?
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2012, 06:02:14 pm »

Alright, mesor, Caerwyn, and TopHat have reserved spots. I'll take two or three more.

Hm, special chief skills...
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Maxinum McDreich

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Re: You're Islanders: Care to Offer Suggestions?
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2012, 06:07:49 pm »

Found this topic. Read the old topic. Love what I read. Would like to reserve a spot, but I'll give my spot away to someone from the original list should they express desire to play again.

EDIT: Meant to also put forth a suggestion. I thought about having groups of people working on the same thing could get bonuses to reflect working together. You could reduce how many rolls you have to do aswell; for instance if 3 people work on a hut that takes 3 successful work days/men to complete, then you roll 1 die with a +3 modifier (or whatever seems appropiate for a d20) as to a complete success, or whether it may need finishing the next day (which could be an automatic success).
Just thought some macro-management could reduce the amount of work the gm has to put in, which is always a good thing.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2012, 06:29:07 pm by Maxinum McDreich »
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Parsely

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Re: You're Islanders: Care to Offer Suggestions?
« Reply #25 on: October 25, 2012, 07:29:31 pm »

Alright, mesor, Caerwyn, and TopHat have reserved spots. I'll take two or three more.
Fuckin' RESERVE.
Will you provide a link to the new thread, or just trust us to find it?
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: You're Islanders: Care to Offer Suggestions?
« Reply #26 on: October 25, 2012, 08:10:54 pm »

Found this topic. Read the old topic. Love what I read. Would like to reserve a spot, but I'll give my spot away to someone from the original list should they express desire to play again.

EDIT: Meant to also put forth a suggestion. I thought about having groups of people working on the same thing could get bonuses to reflect working together. You could reduce how many rolls you have to do aswell; for instance if 3 people work on a hut that takes 3 successful work days/men to complete, then you roll 1 die with a +3 modifier (or whatever seems appropiate for a d20) as to a complete success, or whether it may need finishing the next day (which could be an automatic success).
Just thought some macro-management could reduce the amount of work the gm has to put in, which is always a good thing.
Aid seems like a good thing, and you're reserved.

Alright, mesor, Caerwyn, and TopHat have reserved spots. I'll take two or three more.
Fuckin' RESERVE.
Will you provide a link to the new thread, or just trust us to find it?
Reserved, and I'll link to the new thread.
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Joben

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Re: You're Islanders: Care to Offer Suggestions?
« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2012, 08:46:32 pm »

Re: Hunting/Fishing.

If you want to encourage fishing vs hunting then just slightly exagerate reality. To generalize a great deal fishing is low effort and likely to be at least somewhat successful. Hunting is high effort and likely to fail completely.

For example, if you want to hunt something like deer or boar, and you don't have projectile weapons you basically need a large number of people to spend a lot of time beating the bush, driving the animals to people who can kill them. Animals like that would be very hard for a unarmed human to kill. And they're too fast for a man to chase on his own. You could simply declare that to hunt you either need a bow, or you need spears + dogs + a bunch of people.

In contrast fishing and similar activity can sometimes be done basically by walking along the shore bare handed. "Oh look, a crab. Yoink." Or a couple of guys sitting in a boat with poles. Or by trapping some creatures in a pool as the tide goes out and just picking them up.

-------------

Were you rolling for the outcome of everything?

 Jobs that involve gathering an easy to find commodity should just happen. Send a woman to gather firewood; she comes back with a set size armload of sticks. No roll. Why would there be anyway? Ok conceivably there could be minor variance in yield (Did she get 37 sticks this time or 41?) but that's probably more detail then you need. Same with fruit, shellfish, grass etc.

If I were building a game like this there would be a lot of integers and static modifiers, not many rolls. Because when talking about the efforts of a whole village of people they're gonna mostly average out anyway.
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Parsely

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Re: You're Islanders: Care to Offer Suggestions?
« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2012, 08:50:07 pm »

"Oh look, a crab. Yoink."
That made me laugh.
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: You're Islanders: Care to Offer Suggestions?
« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2012, 08:52:22 pm »

...Constant results for simpler tasks....
WHY DIDN'T I THINK OF THIS?

Oh, yeah, deciding that an RtD would be "simpler..."
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