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Author Topic: A physics question  (Read 9118 times)

Karlito

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Re: A physics question
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2012, 07:42:43 pm »

Of course, the real earth is rotating, so anything you dropped would slam into the side of the tunnel from the Coriolis effect.
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Grek

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Re: A physics question
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2012, 08:07:12 pm »

The object in question will have a rotational velocity equal to that of the earth's rotational velocity at the height from which you drop it. The object will retain its velocity and move tangental to the Earth's rotation at that same speed. Since the closer to the center of the earth you go the lower the linear velocity of the earth (as per the formula to translate angular velocity to linear velocity, linear velocity=radius*2*pi/time for a complete rotation), the object you dropped will eventually hit the side of the tunnel and slow down.

This can be counteracted by having a wide enough tunnel or by throwing the object at an angle, though.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: A physics question
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2012, 08:22:26 pm »

Not only is Earth not a perfect sphere, it isn't a sphere at all. It's an ellipsoid, wider at the equator.
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Shadowlord

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Re: A physics question
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2012, 08:30:24 pm »

If you're going to bring up problems like that, you may as well ask how you would dig through the mantle and core, and how you would hold them back and keep the tunnel in a vacuum-state (and not even space is a pure vacuum).

This was more of a "So if we make an imaginary sphere like the earth and put a tunnel in the center and eliminate some annoying elements of physics..." question, methinks. What's with all the gotcha physics, eh? Vast leftwing science conspiracy, eh? Tryin' to stop us from digging a tunnel to China?
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: A physics question
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2012, 08:35:26 pm »

There is no evidence to substantiate the claim that the Chinese are colonizing Earth's core and you know it.
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TSTwizby

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Re: A physics question
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2012, 08:52:32 pm »

I was going to post a long overly detailed analysis of the problem, but then I realized that I would have to do it without diagrams. Instead, I'll just say that if we're looking at a spherical distribution of matter through which an object is falling in a straight line, the only conditions on the density of the object to require it oscillate somehow are that it be constant in any given 1-dimensional ring of the sphere, perpendicular to the axis the object is falling along. Given a particular total mass, the density changing radially has no effect on anything, and the density changing along the axis will affect only the point around which the object oscillates, not the end points of oscillation (for example, if the earth were half lead and half cork, the object would accelerate/decelerate quickly on the lead half and slowly on the cork half, but will still turn around at the same places as it would if the earth's density were made uniform). In fact, if you don't mind the line not being straight and the object can magically pass through the sphere without interacting with it, the distance it rises on the ends of its various oscillations don't matter at all, though it will come out all over the place.

Keep in mind with the above that we are making a bunch of huge stupid assumptions: in both cases, we assume that the object's motion is unaffected by anything other than gravity, so no friction, and that the sphere is stationary relative to the object initially. Also, we are assuming in the second case that the 'hole' we are dropping it through has no width and is some kind of crazy wobbly shape. So the first case is a bit less crazy.


Now as for how well this models the earth, there are a few problems. Firstly, friction is unavoidable. Even if you filled a straight tunnel through the earth with vacuum, there are still virtual particles popping up every few attoseconds and screwing up the motion infinitesimally which will eventually (which here is basically equivalent to 'after a few trillion googleplex universe lifetimes' but is still smaller than an eternity) cause the motion to stabilize. Next, there's the object itself. Unless it is a particle, it has constituents (whether they are molecules, atoms, electrons or quarks) which have a small but finite chance of going off and doing their own thing. If it is beyond the scale of molecules it will almost immediately pull itself apart in the immense vacuum pressure. And if they're much smaller than atoms, quantum effects will noticeably affect its motion. Finally, the particles themselves may degrade over time, or emit energy spontaneously. Any one of these things happening has a very good chance of knocking it out of its pre-set axis, and causing it to bump into the side eventually. Of course, all of this applies to the particles making up the earth and vacuum generating device as well, though presumably you could negate the effects with some kind of particle shield attached to your vacuum generator.

Most of that only affects the motion after relatively huge time scales, but there are other problems which act much faster. Firstly, the earth is spinning, so as Karlito mentioned the Coriolis effect will change its path very quickly. This would be resolvable with either making the hole wider or drilling through the axis of rotation, except that axis also changes over time. Getting back to the huge timescales, the object's falling would actually cause the earth's axis to change slightly over time, until eventually the axis would be in the plane of the earth rotating around the sun, while the object would be doing who knows what at this point.

Finally, with regards to the non-sphericalness of the earth, this only actually matters less than you'd think. You can still consider the earth to be spherical, just with 0 density at some points.

I'm pretty sure that the above is mostly correct.
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Bauglir

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Re: A physics question
« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2012, 09:38:08 pm »

Finally, with regards to the non-sphericalness of the earth, this only actually matters less than you'd think. You can still consider the earth to be spherical, just with 0 density at some points.
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i2amroy

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Re: A physics question
« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2012, 11:38:48 pm »

As other's have said, if it were a perfect vacuum and the falling object wasn't touching the sides of the tunnel then it would oscillate endlessly.

As an interesting side note, the amount of time that it would take said object to fall all of the way from one side of the earth to the stopping point on the opposite side is approximately 42 minutes.
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TSTwizby

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Re: A physics question
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2012, 12:45:56 am »

On  another interesting side note, if rather than dropping something frictionlessly through a hole you put it on a track which ran frictionlessly on any straight line through the earth, rather than just the center (say from Alaska to California or something like that) then the trip would take exactly the same amount of time (though this probably has more requirements with regards to density and whatnot. I haven't really thought through it.)
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Facekillz058

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Re: A physics question
« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2012, 05:25:26 am »

Okay, TL;DR,
But assuming you could drill a tunnel through the earth, without your drill being crushed up into a microbial ball in the core,
your object would either:
A. Be crushed.
B. Go through to China, if you shot it at incredible velocities and ignored gravity because it doesnt exist in this example.
Or C. Anything everyone else has said.
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Snowblind

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Re: A physics question
« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2012, 05:35:56 am »

Afaik, It would eventually stick to the side of the tunnel, because of the gravity of everything else in the universe acting on the ball, or the unequal gravity of the planet, or whatever.

Unless the planet was perfectly shaped, ball perfectly shaped, tunnel was perfectly smooth, complete vacuum, no minute changes in anything at all, absolutely flawless conditions, then it would oscillate forever. Unless quantum decay or something acts on it and it changes course slightly.

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Mech#4

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Re: A physics question
« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2012, 06:09:46 am »

I wonder if you could use Earth's gravity at the center to power a generator? Something like a gyroscope.
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Shades

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Re: A physics question
« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2012, 06:14:43 am »

Afaik, It would eventually stick to the side of the tunnel, because of the gravity of everything else in the universe acting on the ball, or the unequal gravity of the planet, or whatever.

Unless the planet was perfectly shaped, ball perfectly shaped, tunnel was perfectly smooth, complete vacuum, no minute changes in anything at all, absolutely flawless conditions, then it would oscillate forever. Unless quantum decay or something acts on it and it changes course slightly.

You missed not rotating (or the tunnel was along the axis), it wouldn't actually need to be a 'perfect' sphere (what is a non-perfect sphere??) just equally balanced density, and so equally balanced gravity, from any given point in the tunnel. There tunnel also wouldn't need to be perfectly smooth (again as long as gravity is balanced) as you wouldn't hit it on the axis (or non-rotating) and hitting it at speed the smoothness wouldn't matter overly :)

I assumed the complete vacuum requirement would also magically stop particles getting in, stopping things like neutrinos is hard although I doubt they would cause much friction anyway.

I wonder if you could use Earth's gravity at the center to power a generator? Something like a gyroscope.

Don't see why not, but you'd basically be converting the planets rotational energy into electrical.
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Another

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Re: A physics question
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2012, 07:51:09 am »

A not so theoretical and a bit more practical question is what will happen to a WIMP if it at some time (after one collides with matter) it has less than escape velocity from the Earth and a trajectory that crosses Earth?

What if the body in question is larger or more dense (like a star or a neutron star)?

Weak interaction is really weak but finite and quite calculable.
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Leafsnail

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Re: A physics question
« Reply #29 on: October 24, 2012, 07:58:54 am »

I wonder if you could use Earth's gravity at the center to power a generator? Something like a gyroscope.
No.  Although there'd be a huge amount of geothermal energy available if you made a deep hole.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2012, 08:00:36 am by Leafsnail »
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