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Author Topic: I need to carefully euthanize my elderly  (Read 2365 times)

martinuzz

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I need to carefully euthanize my elderly
« on: October 23, 2012, 12:59:37 am »

Oh gods.
A few minutes ago, 3 popular dwarves died from old age just about simultaneously. At about the same moment, two pet cats died as well. About 25 out of my remaining 140 dwarves have just instantly gone from ecstatic to somewhere in the range of miserable to unhappy. Within a minute, I've had my first mourning dwarf go stark raving mad already. By means of designating a meeting area, I've parked every idle dwarf under my mist generator, right in front of the legendary dining room, and hope my fort will survive this. If it does, I'll need to start carefully selecting the old timers one by one to die through 'unfortunate accidents'.

Tantrum spiral, here we go!
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Gigaz

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Re: I need to carefully euthanize my elderly
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2012, 02:36:42 am »

Old dwarfs die of old age with a certain rate once they are 150 and they die immediately when they become 170.

I think this rate is too low and the game checks the age only once per season (or even year?). This causes nasty peaks in the age-related death rate.
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luppolo

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Re: I need to carefully euthanize my elderly
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2012, 02:41:39 am »

first generatedworld problems

i don't think my dorfs ever lived enough to die by "natural causes", anyway i always try to minimize idle dwarves to avoid too much friendships going down when a siege goes wrong (and without traps/danger rooms it's not unlikely as it sounds to be)

dorfs with high friendliness (filter with dwarf therapist) have accidents as soon they arrive unless they come with good skills at something
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Berossus

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Re: I need to carefully euthanize my elderly
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2012, 02:42:37 am »

*Soilent green bisquits*?
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My son, many speak of the honor in war.
My preferred method is to wait until their back is turned, then impale them with a pike held by someone else.
Preferrably from a distance.

wagawaga

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Re: I need to carefully euthanize my elderly
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2012, 05:38:49 am »

Get ready for a slow but deadly tantrum spiral.

My last fort went down similarly:
A badly timed cavern breach resulted in two dead dwarves, which plummeted 4 of my 130 to miserable. Nothing could bring them back to even 1 point of happiness, and then I suddenly realized something. Every dwarf in my fortress was friends or family wih at least 10 other dwarves, and every time I thought the situation would have stabilized, that last one stark raving mad dwarf vould die and make another one fall to 0.
After 2 years with plentiful booze and food, mist generator in the legendary dining room, tons of statues, and high value bedrooms for everyone...
I'm now at population 86, of which 12 are stuck at 0 (they'd probably be very well into the negatives if possible), 20 or so very unhappy, about 2-3 unhappy and the rest barely content.
But I know it won't last. I should have thought of culling the weak long ago.
I might have just reached that critical mass of friendships that makes it all inevitably collapse on itself at the first two deaths, and I can only hope for some lucky dwarf to get the "doesn't care about anything anymore" trait soon enough.

(Or there's still that vampire I walled up.)

If you want to reduce your population without any negative hit on happiness, think about atomsmashing. You can even atomsmash multiple dwarves, and as long as all witnessess are smashed under the same bridge none of them should be able to report any death in time, and they'll all go missing. Absolutely 0 chance of their corpses to turn up. Engrave some slabs and done.

Anyway, next fortress I'm going to go all means possible to prevent any friendship-making.
Seeing how my planters fared pretty well in this fort (at least until their respective migrant consorts died), I was thinking of separating every dwarf in a personal burrow, the only connection to the outside being a group of haulers with no burrow restrictions, as well as the odd professions such as miner or woodcutter.


Heck, I'll take it to the next level and use minecarts with 1-tile jumps to make it phisically impossible for dwarves to interact.
And my militia will deploy by riding carts at the speed of light.

EDIT: If you're going to try the  atomsmash method, keep a backup of your save and DFHack nearby, just in case you can't get rid of the ghosts.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 06:14:42 am by wagawaga »
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pr0d4u

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Re: I need to carefully euthanize my elderly
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2012, 05:51:14 am »

Feed them to vampires, so their deaths can be kind of meaningful.
At least if you modded in a syndrome that causes sucked dwarf blood to stop alcohol dependance temporarily.

I have a special vampire feeding floor where useless dwarfes end up.
If I get vampires early I lock them in a small barrack with some chairs for manager/bookkeeper duties and have them train constantly.
The exit is a forbidden door leading to a small statue garden and dining room with a few small bedrooms with doors. The whole thing is cut of from the rest of the fort.
When useless migrants come, the vamps get locked up in the barracks while the bedrooms are assigned to the victims. The food/drink stockpiles get filled up, victims are burrowed in the feeding zone and when all useful dwarfes are out of there again the whole thing is cut of from the real fortress again and barrack doors unlocked.
As the new victims grow tired and go to sleep in their solo bedrooms the vampires start feeding.
Empty coffins inside the feeding area are a good idea.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: I need to carefully euthanize my elderly
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2012, 07:42:56 am »

Starvation is an easy one, and it leaves an whole corpse to bury.

Burnup

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Re: I need to carefully euthanize my elderly
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2012, 10:19:32 am »

All the above suggestions are good.

Yeah, a little too much idle time and everyone becomes aquianted, especially if you only have one dinning hall or your dinning halls are close quartered.
Way too much idle time makes them all related. (this has happened to me with a populace of 120.) Great for end game, when tragedy is far and inbetween.

parties are good.
But I personal keep my people on a rigorous schedule through military training / sentry / patrol duties / industrial direction as to control how many are attending parties and how many are idle at any one time.

I've noticed that happiness is like any resource in this game, Yes you can mass produce and flood yourself with it. But the trick is to create perfectly only what you need. This is what I believe is the essence of efficiency.
I use happiness as a combative measure against tragedy. I've noticed surrounding in general happiness makes them overreact to the bad.

a couple of my policies for example is:

complaining about long patrol duty? double patrol for you for a month! once back into his old schedule he will be happy (relieved).

You didn't enjoy the last slaughter? Have an awesome home for you and your family!

You lost a loved one? Awesome home for you too!
Lost another loved one? Look, smooth walls in your home!
Another? Look, an engraving on your floor!

In the end I keep there lives rigorous and barely-joyful unless their mentality is going downhill. everyone who has not been in battle or been effected by tragedy live in slums and are quite content.
Everyone else lives in luxury and are ecstatic about there tragedies. I've had some that enjoy slaughter, so I leave them in slums. Then one day they're pissed about something random, so I move them up. Keep the trump cards for when you need them.

Mass parties are more for if you've lost half your populace to zombies or something, and are trying to reccuperate mentality and populace in one darring swing. But even then, you'd just be trying to avoid a tantrum spiral by buying time for immigrants to arrive and make this depressed bunch of partyers the minority. (Or for vanity, if you think no tragedy can happen. Then by all means, party away)

I find I don't take it upon myself to kill any one of my dwarves. I just have them fight every battle with honor, no traps, no walls. Therefor my population keeps steady, I weed out the weak, and sometimes my veterans go down in a burst of glory like they should. Everyone but a skeleton crew of seven are in the military 2/3rds of the year. (1/3rd training, 1/3rd patrol/sentry 1/3 civilian work) I've taken mass losses, without a single dwarf tantruming. I've had a fortress that lived long enough to see the original embarkment dwarves die of old age, followed by 2 more generations. Still no tantrums. The trick? Keep the trump cards close to your chest for when you need them. No sooner, no later.
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martinuzz

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Re: I need to carefully euthanize my elderly
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2012, 10:43:32 am »

After action report on the tantrum event of 371.

I have been very lucky.

In the first minute after the old ones' passing, Gemlogs the woodcutter goes stark raving mad, an artefact mechanism is created, depicting the creation of some masterful silk pants, and the first marriage in my fort takes place between two dwarves that have been born and raised there. They decide to throw a party, inviting every single unhappy dwarf to leave the comfort of my mist generator to join them.

The next 5 minutes see some more action, as Dart, my current elected mayor (also a member of the fortress guard) tantrums, and strikes a punch at the captain of the guard. Both have some dodging skills, and no damage is done.
At the same time, Crusher, one of my miners, tantrums, in the middle of the party room, and through sheer luck he decides to swing a fist instead of a steel pick at Tanny the Tanner. He calms down quite fast after that one punch. That could have been a bloodbath, had he used his pick.

Herb, the resident useless herbalist, and excess siege engineer, decides it's too much, and she starts stripping, drooling and babbling incomprehensibly. At the same time.
Around the corner, Bookwurm, the bookkeeper throws a fit, and swings a fist at a random gem setter, who easily dodges the fat magistrate's punch, and runs of to report the crime to the sherrif.
A few minutes pass with the tantrumers calming down, and then the wedding party ends, sending dwarves back to the mist generator. It was a really short party. I notice I'm almost down to no unhappies.

But it isn't fully over yet.
Gemlogs, who went stark raving mad earlier, dies of thirst, and about a minute later, Herb succumbs to thirst as well, in the middle of the meeting area. This gives most dwarves, who didn't have it already, the 'has witnessed death' thought. Three dwarves insta-tantrum, and from almost none I go back up to around 30 unhappies.  Again Crusher, the miner, tantrums. Again, he forgets about his pick and starts pummeling a siege operator with his fists.
Arrow, another member of the fortress guard tantrums. But before he can find a target for his rage, he himself becomes victimized by the fists of Shear, local sheep girl.

Simultaneously, Sherrif, husband of the hammerer, and actually not a member of the police, tantrums, and tries to place a chokehold on Clothcleave, the fort's main clothier, who mysteriously arrived to the fortress without a nose. I suspect that missing nose to have something to do with him going on a pilgrimage to worship Belal, the deity of Sun and Day, 20 years before immigrating to my fort. Despite his bright appearance, Belal is known to have created at least one vampire and one werewolf in his glory days. It is ill advised to go on a pilgrimage to worship deities known for meddling with dark curses. I imagine Clothcleave's nose is sniffing about, animated by dark magics somewhere.
Perhaps it is the lack of a nose that causes Sherrif's wrestling escapade to fail. It enrages him further, and he grabs Blocks, mason, by the ankle. They struggle for a while, and once Blocks regains hold of her ankle, Sherrif has calmed down.

The next 10 minutes the red down arrows die out slowly, but steadily. One dwarf remains miserable for quite a while; Blocks. She got really unhappy because 'she was upset to be forced to talk to a pillar of society lately'. But her being miserable passed. All my dwarves are happy again.

Total damage: 3 dwarves dead, old age. 2 dwarves dead, unhappiness.

Odd note: Of all crimes reported to the authorities, none led to punishment. I guess the bookkeeper is a noble, and immune. But at least two of the assailants are neither nobility, nor fortress guard. Is punching someone not a crime? Is it only a crime when somebody is hurt beyond bruising?
Or did the dead of my previous captain of the guard (he died of old age a few years back) break the justice system? At least I know that the punishments for violating export bans still work.
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Friendly and polite reminder for optimists: Hope is a finite resource

We can ­disagree and still love each other, ­unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist - James Baldwin

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479

I am Leo

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Re: I need to carefully euthanize my elderly
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2012, 11:32:35 am »

Decentralize your dwarves, declare dining rooms and burrows all over your fort to keep the tantrum from spreading from dwarf to dwarf. Isolate risky subjects in sealed rooms. If they die, wall up the door and never get a sad thought due to their body being found.
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Sgt_Joe

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Re: I need to carefully euthanize my elderly
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2012, 11:43:10 am »

*Minced soilent green bisquits*?
fixed
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AutomataKittay

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Re: I need to carefully euthanize my elderly
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2012, 11:45:41 am »

Bridgeslam them, out of sight, they'll just turn out missing and you can slab them :D

Also, get everyone into squads and give them helmets, I've had too many tantrum spiral happen because they decided to punch each other brains out.
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malvado

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Re: I need to carefully euthanize my elderly
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2012, 02:06:57 pm »

Honestly, dwarves dying of old age or Heroic combat should generate either "Neutral" thoughts or even positive thoughts.

Some temporary unhappyness could be ok as long as it never generates an Tantrum spiral , in my opinion Tantrums should be caused due to other factors such as :

*Living conditions over a long time.
*Forced Labor (once economy kicks inn).
*Kids murdered / captured by gobbos (should have an negative effect over time so when the dwarf stops hoping for reunion he / she might tantrum).
*Lack of good booze / food over time.

Just a few short examples.
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BeenCarl

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Re: I need to carefully euthanize my elderly
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2012, 04:00:16 pm »

Honestly, dwarves dying of old age or Heroic combat should generate either "Neutral" thoughts or even positive thoughts.

Some temporary unhappiness could be ok as long as it never generates an Tantrum spiral , in my opinion Tantrums should be caused due to other factors
Good point, I have had many troubles dealing with these deaths. I would understand that these effects would drop in a small sense because of a loss of a loved one but honestly, I am not ganna punch out my sheriffs brains due to the passing of my grandmother.
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bdsorensen

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Re: I need to carefully euthanize my elderly
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2012, 04:58:22 pm »

Honestly, dwarves dying of old age or Heroic combat should generate either "Neutral" thoughts or even positive thoughts.

Some temporary unhappiness could be ok as long as it never generates an Tantrum spiral , in my opinion Tantrums should be caused due to other factors
Good point, I have had many troubles dealing with these deaths. I would understand that these effects would drop in a small sense because of a loss of a loved one but honestly, I am not ganna punch out my sheriffs brains due to the passing of my grandmother.
Put yourselves in your dwarves shoes! They live in constant fear of destruction by forces inside and out, that the next vein of candy will be their last, that the gobbos get some lucky shots on them, and that maybe Armok may require a sacrifice to test the latest contraption.

Also, they're piss drunk.
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