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[Grimlocke]

Good to know it gets some use

Speed is a bit funny, a while back I read it doesnt have a linear effect but an exponential one (which would explain why the vanilla whips are like lightsabers). The effect isnt quite as extreme as that would suggest, but its still a good way to balance out otherwise weak weapons (like blunt weapons and daggers).

I havnt balanced every weapon against every other weapon, so if you find any weird quirks feel free to let me know.

[Zoolimar]

Speed is a bit funny, a while back I read it doesnt have a linear effect but an exponential one (which would explain why the vanilla whips are like lightsabers).

Well, formula for attack power probably includes something like mV/S or mVV/2S.

[Quietust]

I told you, a weapons weight is not determined by it's SIZE, but it's MATERIAL_SIZE.

In case it hasn't already been made clear, this is wrong - I've personally reverse-engineered the logic for item weight, and for weapons it uses the [SIZE:x] value (divided by 10, as is done with size values everywhere else) and the material's density.

This is one instance where the data on the wiki is actually correct, and it's a shame that people can't trust it as such automatically (because of people adding unconfirmed information as if it were fact and blindly importing outdated material from previous versions).

[Zoolimar]

Some new tests and modded raws.

I tried to add armor made out of felt wool and it was a success to some degree.

On the plus side: Armor provided defense.
On the minus side: All weapons with standard EDGE contact area can't penetrate it.

Body Armor RAW - weight 10 Г

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[ITEM_ARMOR:ITEM_ARMOR_FELT_CARAPACE]
[NAME:felt carapace: felt carapaces]
[ARMORLEVEL:1]
[UBSTEP:1]
[LBSTEP:1]
[SHAPED]
[LAYER:ARMOR]
[COVERAGE:100]
[LAYER_SIZE:35]
[LAYER_PERMIT:50]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:9]
[SOFT]
[STRUCTURAL_ELASTICITY_CHAIN_ALL]

Head Armor RAW - weight 3 Г

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[ITEM_HELM:ITEM_HELM_FELT_HOOD]
[NAME:felt hood:felt hoods]
[ARMORLEVEL:1]
[LAYER:ARMOR]
[COVERAGE:100]
[LAYER_SIZE:65]
[LAYER_PERMIT:100]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:2]
[SHAPED]
[SOFT]
[STRUCTURAL_ELASTICITY_CHAIN_ALL]

Legs Armor RAW - weight 10 Г

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[ITEM_PANTS:ITEM_PANTS_FELT_PANTS]
[PREPLURAL:pairs of]
[NAME:felt trousers:felt trousers]
[ARMORLEVEL:1]
[LBSTEP:MAX]
[LAYER:ARMOR]
[COVERAGE:100]
[LAYER_SIZE:30]
[LAYER_PERMIT:30]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:4]
[SOFT]
[STRUCTURAL_ELASTICITY_CHAIN_ALL]

Boot Armor RAW - weight 2 Г

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[ITEM_SHOES:ITEM_SHOES_FELT_BOOTS]
[NAME:felt boot:felt boots]
[ARMORLEVEL:1]
[UPSTEP:1]
[LAYER:OVER]
[COVERAGE:100]
[LAYER_SIZE:100]
[LAYER_PERMIT:15]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:2]
[SOFT]
[STRUCTURAL_ELASTICITY_CHAIN_ALL]

Glove Armor RAW - weight 1 Г

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[ITEM_GLOVES:ITEM_GLOVES_FELT_GLOVES]
[NAME:felt glove:felt gloves]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:1]
[ARMORLEVEL:1]
[LAYER:ARMOR]
[COVERAGE:100]
[LAYER_SIZE:100]
[LAYER_PERMIT:10]
[SOFT]
[STRUCTURAL_ELASTICITY_CHAIN_ALL]

Total weight 29 Г

Test conclusion: armor with bigger [LAYER_SIZE] gives more protection.

[Grimlocke]

Test conclusion: armor with bigger [LAYER_SIZE] gives more protection.

Tested this with 20v20 groups of humans, one wearing layer_size:1 bodyarmor, one wearing layer_size:100. Rest of the armor is adamantine.

5 runs, 3 won by size 100, 2 won by size 1, none of the battles were particularly onesided. Which it should have been with a factor 100 difference, had that mattered.

Cant conclude that LAYER_SIZE affects armor effectiveness.

Have been trying to find an easy way to include padded cloth armor myself, sadly the only way to make it would be to add a whole set of seperate materials and reactions.

[Zoolimar]

5 runs, 3 won by size 100, 2 won by size 1, none of the battles were particularly onesided. Which it should have been with a factor 100 difference, had that mattered.

Hmm. The raws in my above post stop steel weapons from penetration but have little protection against blunt attacks. But i tested only penetration not advantage and only with wool armor.

Will make a test with more participants.

Have been trying to find an easy way to include padded cloth armor myself, sadly the only way to make it would be to add a whole set of seperate materials and reactions.

I too tried some materials. I even found some numbers for wool felt but nothing really good.

Numbers for wool felt:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Density 3.075 g/cm^3
Tensile Strength (Min) PSI 500
Splitting Resistance (Min) Per 2" Width / 33 lb

•Elongation (100 psi) = 13%
•Mullen Bursting Strength (1/8") 250 psi
•Compressibility (10% defl), psi 21
•Recovery (within 1 min after 10% defl)% 99

Edited: My mistake. Penetration depends on [STRUCTURAL_ELASTICITY] tag. Chain will have almost no penetration and cloth will be sliced.

[i2amroy]

Tested this with 20v20 groups of humans, one wearing layer_size:1 bodyarmor, one wearing layer_size:100. Rest of the armor is adamantine.

5 runs, 3 won by size 100, 2 won by size 1, none of the battles were particularly onesided. Which it should have been with a factor 100 difference, had that mattered.

Would like to point out that due to the randomness of DF testing large groups is a very bad testing method, and 5 tests is a very short number of runs. Even for small groups you probably want to run a minimum of 25 tests before you start claiming the results mean this or that, and larger groups are much more vulnerable to the luck of the RNG due to dwarves that defeat their set "opponent" being able to gang up and invalidate the results of other battles by their friends. The best testing method is really running like 100 1v1 tests and recording the winners, therefore minimizing the effects of the RNG.

[Zoolimar]

Have been trying to find an easy way to include padded cloth armor myself, sadly the only way to make it would be to add a whole set of seperate materials and reactions.

You can try to make layered armor.

Make armor piece called padding with size small enough to have 10-20 layers of this stuff under metal.

[Grimlocke]

Would like to point out that due to the randomness of DF testing large groups is a very bad testing method, and 5 tests is a very short number of runs. Even for small groups you probably want to run a minimum of 25 tests before you start claiming the results mean this or that, and larger groups are much more vulnerable to the luck of the RNG due to dwarves that defeat their set "opponent" being able to gang up and invalidate the results of other battles by their friends. The best testing method is really running like 100 1v1 tests and recording the winners, therefore minimizing the effects of the RNG.

True, it takes a lot more time though.
This test was just to see if there was any significant difference in strength (as I gave the sized a factor 100 difference). Large groups with relatively minor advantages usualy seem to come out on top. (granted, only done this often enough with weapon testing. Havnt tested armors in this way often).

Have been trying to find an easy way to include padded cloth armor myself, sadly the only way to make it would be to add a whole set of seperate materials and reactions.

You can try to make layered armor.

Make armor piece called padding with size small enough to have 10-20 layers of this stuff under metal.

Hehe, thats one way to go about it. Would still pick the seperate material/reaction approach over that though.

[Zoolimar]

This test was just to see if there was any significant difference in strength (as I gave the sized a factor 100 difference). Large groups with relatively minor advantages usualy seem to come out on top. (granted, only done this often enough with weapon testing. Havnt tested armors in this way often).

There is also the problem of speed. Those with heavy armor will take penalties to it.

[Facekillz058]

I told you, a weapons weight is not determined by it's SIZE, but it's MATERIAL_SIZE.

In case it hasn't already been made clear, this is wrong - I've personally reverse-engineered the logic for item weight, and for weapons it uses the [SIZE:x] value (divided by 10, as is done with size values everywhere else) and the material's density.

This is one instance where the data on the wiki is actually correct, and it's a shame that people can't trust it as such automatically (because of people adding unconfirmed information as if it were fact and blindly importing outdated material from previous versions).

Oh, i've been doing things wrong then.
Sorry for thinking I was right when I wasn't, i'll swallow the ego next time I post.

[Zoolimar]

About armor:

Raw1

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[ITEM_ARMOR:ITEM_ARMOR_LIGHT_PADDING]
[NAME:light padding:light padding]
[ARMORLEVEL:1]
[UBSTEP:2]
[LBSTEP:1]
[LAYER:UNDER]
[COVERAGE:100]
[LAYER_SIZE:5]
[LAYER_PERMIT:45]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:1]
[LEATHER]

Raw2

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[ITEM_ARMOR:ITEM_ARMOR_PADDING]
[NAME:padding:padding]
MATERIAL_PLACEHOLDER:leather]
[ARMORLEVEL:1]
[UBSTEP:2]
[LBSTEP:1]
[LAYER:UNDER]
[COVERAGE:100]
[LAYER_SIZE:20]
[LAYER_PERMIT:180]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:1]
[LEATHER]

I suggest to try each one in 10 layers with no other body armor and against copper sword. All other body parts shall be protected with steel.

It seems there is at least some correlation between LAYER_SIZE and armor effectiveness.

I organized a couple of fights 1vs1 and there were no penetrations through Heavy Padding (except against knocked down targets). Sample size 3 times 20 humans in 1vs1 fights. 

[Urist Da Vinci]

Here I posted the reverse-engineered clothing/armor size/weight calculation.
http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012_Talk:Weight

So layer size and coverage matter.

Here I posted the contact area of non-weapon objects:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=116151.msg3699000#msg3699000
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=116151.msg3712777#msg3712777

CONTACT_AREA = (SIZE/10)^(2/3)

So your dwarf has a contact area 19 fist. Also, any sword hitting him in the torso is limited to a contact area of about 100.

[Zoolimar]

Here I posted the reverse-engineered clothing/armor size/weight calculation.
http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012_Talk:Weight

Thats a great thing.

So your dwarf has a contact area 19 fist. Also, any sword hitting him in the torso is limited to a contact area of about 100.

And thats even greater one if its true.

But now i'm even more interested in Armor Size-Protection relation.

[Zoolimar]

Tested the following armor in different sizes:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[ITEM_ARMOR:ITEM_ARMOR_PX]
[NAME:padX:padX]
[ARMORLEVEL:1]
[UBSTEP:2]
[LBSTEP:1]
[LAYER:UNDER]
[COVERAGE:100]
[LAYER_SIZE:X]
[LAYER_PERMIT:180]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:1]
[LEATHER]

X = 25, 50, 75, 100, 150 or 200.

Humans were armed with short swords made of copper, bronze, iron, steel or adamantine. They were protected by jaguar leather armor on the body slot and upper arm slot and adamantine armor on all other slots.

Test results:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

ARMOR SIZE 25

•Copper: Slashing and piercing attacks penetrate armor.
•Bronze: Slashing and piercing attacks penetrate armor.
•Iron: Slashing and piercing attacks penetrate armor.
•Steel: Slashing and piercing attacks penetrate armor.
•Adamantine: Slashing and piercing attacks penetrate armor.

ARMOR SIZE 50

•Copper: Piercing attacks penetrate armor, Slashing attacks deflect but can penetrate armor of targets lying down on the ground.
•Bronze: Piercing attacks penetrate armor, Slashing attacks deflect but can penetrate armor of targets lying down on the ground.
•Iron: Piercing attacks penetrate armor, Slashing attacks deflect but can penetrate armor of targets lying down on the ground.
•Steel: Slashing and piercing attacks penetrate armor.
•Adamantine: Slashing and piercing attacks penetrate armor.

ARMOR SIZE 75

•Copper: Piercing attacks penetrate armor, Slashing attacks deflect.
•Bronze: Piercing attacks penetrate armor, Slashing attacks deflect.
•Iron: Piercing attacks penetrate armor, Slashing attacks deflect but can penetrate armor of targets lying down on the ground..
•Steel: Slashing and piercing attacks penetrate armor.
•Adamantine: Slashing and piercing attacks penetrate armor.

ARMOR SIZE 100

•Copper: Piercing attacks bruise target, Slashing attacks deflect.
•Bronze: Piercing attacks bruise target, Slashing attacks deflect.
•Iron: Piercing bruise target, Slashing attacks deflect but both attack types penetrate armor of targets lying down on the ground.
•Steel: Slashing and piercing attacks penetrate armor.
•Adamantine: Slashing attacks penetrate armor, Piercing attacks bruise or GLANCE away (!)

ARMOR SIZE 150

•Copper: Piercing attacks bruise target, Slashing attacks deflect.
•Bronze: Piercing attacks bruise target, Slashing attacks deflect..
•Iron: Piercing attacks bruise target, Slashing attacks deflect.
•Steel: Piercing attacks bruise target, Slashing attacks deflect but against targets lying down both attack types penetrate armor.
•Adamantine: Slashing attacks penetrate armor, Piercing attacks bruise or GLANCE away (!)

ARMOR SIZE 200

•Copper: Piercing attacks bruise target, Slashing attacks deflect.
•Bronze: Piercing attacks bruise target, Slashing attacks deflect..
•Iron: Piercing attacks bruise target, Slashing attacks deflect.
•Steel: Piercing attacks bruise target, Slashing attacks deflect.
•Adamantine: Slashing attacks BRUISE (!) target, Piercing attacks BRUISE (!) target and DO NOT (!) glance away.

As you can see armor SIZE do matters for protection against edged weapons. Results for adamantine weapons are weird...