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[Zoolimar]

Basic numbers for Contact Area in slashing attacks are very strange. They allow to cut enemies in half and so on. But the main problems is in armored combat. Weapons using standard slashing CA deflect and bounce from mail armor as if they are made out of paper.

Broadsword/Arming Sword

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[SIZE:155] <<1.2 kg if made out of steel
[SKILL:SWORD]
[TWO_HANDED:57500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:52500]
[CAN_STONE]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:2]
[ATTACK:EDGE:50:1310:slash:slashes:NO_SUB:1500] << assumed 1 meter length, used half blade length in centimeters as contact area
[ATTACK:EDGE:5:2000:stab:stabs:NO_SUB:1000] << assumed 5 centimeters wide blade (normally 3.5-4)

Test subjects were armed with these swords and given steel armor.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Steel helm
Steel Mail Shirt/ Jaguar Leather Shirt
Steel Gauntlets x2/ Jaguar Leather Gloves x2
Steel Mail Chain Leggins
Steel High Boots x2/ Rope Reed Fiber Socks x2

•While standing on their feet targets suffered only bruises to different parts (fat, muscle, stomach, liver). Slashing attacks almost exclusively bruised fat and never stomach or liver. Plate armor parts completely deflected all stabs and slashes.
•Attacks against targets lying on the ground got additional strength and were able to finish them by penetrating steel helmet (around 3 hits average with stabs).

Other weapons made by similar rules was not tested with the same number of subjects (around 50 elves) but seem to give same results.

Careful conclusion: Game seems to assume Contact Area size in centimeters but uses some large numbers that prevent weapons from working as intended. Wooden weapons are worse than unarmed attacks except for the purpose of hitting some naked elf.   

Example of wooden weapon that works.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_MACANA]
[NAME:macana:macanas]
[SIZE:3000] << 1.5 kg assuming average wood density 0.5 g/cm^3
[SKILL:SWORD]
[TWO_HANDED:57500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:52500]
[CAN_STONE]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:1]
[ATTACK:EDGE:30:300:chop:chops:NO_SUB:1700] << assuming 1 meter "blade" with balance moved closer to the tip

This weapon can deal damage through the mail and sometimes even can break some bones. Steel arming sword is much better but this wooden club still can kill you if you forget to wear your breastplate.

P.S. I apologize for any mistakes made in the text. Somehow writing in English is a much harder task for me than reading.

[Facekillz058]

Your problem is, that the measurement aren't done in metric.
So your slash has the contact area of a stab.
And your stab has the contact area required to split things on the atomic level.
Try it with more common armor like Iron. Steel is just about the best armor you can get that isn't candy.
And the [SIZE:xxx] doesn't determine the weight, [MATERIAL_SIZE:] does.
Look at the contact areas for longswords and shortswords and base your attacks off that.

[Putnam]

Yeah, you may notice that axes have a contact area of 60000, which most certainly does not mean a full 600 meters.

[Facekillz058]

Oh, and your attacks will probably go deep enough to scratch muscle, might want to fix that penetration value.

[Zoolimar]

Your problem is, that the measurement aren't done in metric.
So your slash has the contact area of a stab.

But then i have this numbers weapon deal damage to armor that can be predicted.

With 60000 (or 30000) weapons simply bounce and glance while they must bruise fat and muscles and even guts if you are lucky and use stabs.

I tried standard numbers and weapons don't work right. Try using copper or iron mail give one half of the fighters wooden weapons and allow other half to use unarmed combat.  Those without weapons will deal more damage and almost definitely win.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_MACANA]
[NAME:macana:macanas]
[SIZE:3000]
[SKILL:AXE]
[TWO_HANDED:47500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:42500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:4]
[ATTACK:EDGE:30000:6000:hack:hacks:NO_SUB:1700]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:30000:6000:slap:slaps:flat:1700]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:100:1000:strike:strikes:pommel:1000]

Try modding in something like this and see results for yourself. It's a heavy weapon that must at least leave bruises all around. And in arena only pommel strikes have some possibility of leaving bruises.

About size - i used wiki description:

SIZE / WEIGHT • size •    Volume of weapon in mL or cubic cm. Defaults to 100.
MATERIAL_SIZE • value • Number of bar units needed for forging, as well as the amount gained from melting.

Also in the arena mode weight of the steel broadsword shows as 1 Г and weight of the oaken macana as 2 Г.

About penetration - you are right, only it most tearing and not scratching but double penetration will be better.

[Facekillz058]

See, your argument is that swords are supposed to work against armor.
EDGE attacks with a large contact area do not penetrate armor at all, in most instances.
EDGE attacks with lower contact areas should most of the time.
BLUNT attacks are what are supposed to be used against armor.
The smaller the contact area on a BLUNT attack, the more powerful it will be.

Your problem is, that the measurement aren't done in metric.
So your slash has the contact area of a stab.

But then i have this numbers weapon deal damage to armor that can be predicted.

With 60000 (or 30000) weapons simply bounce and glance while they must bruise fat and muscles and even guts if you are lucky and use stabs.

I tried standard numbers and weapons don't work right. Try using copper or iron mail give one half of the fighters wooden weapons and allow other half to use unarmed combat.  Those without weapons will deal more damage and almost definitely win.

Wooden weapons suck in general. And punches and kick are BLUNT attacks, which is why they will work better against armor.

So, in a nutshell:
Swords and the like are for unarmored and low armored targets.
Spears are for armored targets.
Hammers, Maces, Mauls, are for armored targets.
Axes are somewhere in between.

The material also determines how effective a weapon is.
A steel longsword should have no problem doing damage through bronze or copper.

Oh, and:
[SIZE:3000]
Is about the size of a small car.

[Zoolimar]

See, your argument is that swords are supposed to work against armor.
EDGE attacks with a large contact area do not penetrate armor at all, in most instances.
EDGE attacks with lower contact areas should most of the time.

No. In my tests weapons do not penetrated armor (except against targets lying on the ground). My argument is that any weapon must still do some blunt damage against flexible armor (mail, leather).

If i have a 2 kg piece of wood or steel in hand i don't think it will easily penetrate steel armor. But i think that if i strike someone in the ribs he will very well fill it even if all his mail rings are in place.

If i say use oaken sword with 3000 size (2 kg) and 30 Contact Area it can't deal anything to shaped armor like breastplate but when it strikes against mail there will be some bruised muscles or even broken ribs. Same goes for steel weapons only they can penetrate materials of lesser grade.

[SIZE:3000]
Is about the size of a small car.

Weight 2 Г. Checked. So it's 2 kilograms. Standard long sword in vanilla weights 5 Г. So i think 3000 cubic centimeters is a right guess.

This weapons are not supposed to be made out of metal (23.5 kg weapon is a nightmare). Basically its a flat club somewhat sharpened on the sides.

Wooden weapons suck in general. And punches and kick are BLUNT attacks, which is why they will work better against armor.

I know that they suck. They must. Problem is that difference between mail and plate armor against metal blade weapons almost nonexistent.

Weapon made from wood or metal still must have more power than unarmed strikes. Blunt weapon is basically enhanced unarmed strike. With contact area 50 slash/ 5 stab that works. With 60000 slash / 50 stab not so.

[Putnam]

You're trying to use logic. Don't do that. Edged wooden weapons will ALWAYS glance from metal armor because glancing is based on material strength more than weapon properties.

[Facekillz058]

I told you, a weapons weight is not determined by it's SIZE, but it's MATERIAL_SIZE.
And as Putnam stated, an edged weapon made of wood will do nothing to metal armor.
Also, even though EDGE attacks are converted to BLUNT when against heavier armors, that doesnt mean the BLUNT contact area will be the same as the EDGE contact area.
As in: A slash with 50 contact area would have a blunt contact area high enough to be near useless, like 50000.
And also, a BLUNT attacks power is based on the weapons weight. A hammer that weighs 2 Urists is useless, for example.
I'm also quite sure weight doesn't factor into EDGE attacks.
And as I said before, i'm quite sure nothing is done in metric in this game.

[Zoolimar]

You're trying to use logic. Don't do that. Edged wooden weapons will ALWAYS glance from metal armor because glancing is based on material strength more than weapon properties.

Well at size 30 they do not glance but bruise some muscles... Ehh.

Seems like the only way to have normal edge attack and normal anti flexible armor capability is to make a fake attack:
[ATTACK:EDGE:30:0:hack:hacks:NO_SUB:1700]

This way half of the attacks will be blunt attacks (cause penetration 0) and half normal edged attacks.

I told you, a weapons weight is not determined by it's SIZE, but it's MATERIAL_SIZE.

I thinks thats a mistake.

Oaken weapon 3000 size = 2 Г
Oaken weapon 6000 size = 4 Г

Wiki says the same.

Also, even though EDGE attacks are converted to BLUNT when against heavier armors, that doesnt mean the BLUNT contact area will be the same as the EDGE contact area.
As in: A slash with 50 contact area would have a blunt contact area high enough to be near useless, like 50000.

If it is true it's bad. Like really bad.

And also, a BLUNT attacks power is based on the weapons weight. A hammer that weighs 2 Urists is useless, for example.

That seems to be not entirely true.

Attack power relies on (Weight*Speed)/Contact Area with many unknown modifiers (like strength and agility).

I'm also quite sure weight doesn't factor into EDGE attacks.

Checking... True.

And as I said before, i'm quite sure nothing is done in metric in this game.

Well density is in "metric" (g/cm^3) multiplied by 1 thousand.

[G-Flex]

Yeah, you may notice that axes have a contact area of 60000, which most certainly does not mean a full 600 meters.

Area is not measured in centimeters. If anything, that would be square centimeters, and 60,000 square centimeters is only 6 square meters. Granted, that's still obviously not the case.

[Facekillz058]

You're trying to use logic. Don't do that. Edged wooden weapons will ALWAYS glance from metal armor because glancing is based on material strength more than weapon properties.

Well at size 30 they do not glance but bruise some muscles... Ehh.

Seems like the only way to have normal edge attack and normal anti flexible armor capability is to make a fake attack:
[ATTACK:EDGE:30:0:hack:hacks:NO_SUB:1700]

Having a penetration size of zero will not make your attacks into blunt attacks, they will make your attacks do, literally, nothing to almost nothing.

[Zoolimar]

Having a penetration size of zero will not make your attacks into blunt attacks, they will make your attacks do, literally, nothing to almost nothing.

Bruising still possible and that is all what is needed for this fake attack. I'm checking such things in arena and one fighter bruising lungs of the other through the steel mail shirt is more than enough.

Also thats not mine idea - all credit goes to Grim Grimoire mod.

[Grimlocke]

You're trying to use logic. Don't do that. Edged wooden weapons will ALWAYS glance from metal armor because glancing is based on material strength more than weapon properties.

Well at size 30 they do not glance but bruise some muscles... Ehh.

Seems like the only way to have normal edge attack and normal anti flexible armor capability is to make a fake attack:
[ATTACK:EDGE:30:0:hack:hacks:NO_SUB:1700]

Having a penetration size of zero will not make your attacks into blunt attacks, they will make your attacks do, literally, nothing to almost nothing.

Quite incorrect. This weapon:

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_POLEHAMMER]
[NAME:polehammer:polehammers]
[SIZE:1250]
[SKILL:PIKE]
[TWO_HANDED:137500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:57500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:4]
[ATTACK:EDGE:40:0:bash:bashes:NO_SUB:3500]
[ATTACK:EDGE:10:18000:stab:stabs:NO_SUB:2250]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:20:0:stab:stabs:buttspike:1250]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:400:0:bash:bashes:shaft:1250]

Does fairly nasty damage against both armoured and unarmoured enemies.


@OP: I found that putting realistic numbers into the DF raws can often lead just unrealistic results. For the grim grimoire mod I increased the size on most weapons, enough for them to inflict reastic damage even when they dont make a penetrating hit. Also significantelly reduced stab contact area to give that at least some chance against armour. Heres the arming sword for example:

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_SWORD_ARMING]
[NAME:arming sword:arming swords]
[SIZE:500]
[SKILL:SWORD]
[TWO_HANDED:42500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:42500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:4]
[ATTACK:EDGE:50000:4750:slash:slashes:NO_SUB:1250]
[ATTACK:EDGE:30:7700:stab:stabs:NO_SUB:1575]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:50000:0:slap:slaps:flat:1250]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:50:0:strike:strikes:pommel:1000]

[Zoolimar]

@OP: I found that putting realistic numbers into the DF raws can often lead just unrealistic results. For the grim grimoire mod I increased the size on most weapons, enough for them to inflict reastic damage even when they dont make a penetrating hit. Also significantelly reduced stab contact area to give that at least some chance against armour. Heres the arming sword for example:

I have your mod installed in the version of the game for actual play.

Also it seems you can somewhat offset mass with speed modifier. Weapon with [size 500/ speed 1250] and weapon with [size 250 / speed 2500] are close but not the same. At high speeds and large contact area (60000) edge weapons have tendency to go through shaped armor but will bounce off mail.