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[ExecratedDwarf]

Oh, my apologies. I thought this was the suggestion forum. I didn't realize I was talking to the people in charge of Dwarf Fortress development. Thanks for clearing that up.

[DG]

Oh, my apologies. I thought this was the suggestion forum. I didn't realize I was talking to the people in charge of Dwarf Fortress development. Thanks for clearing that up.

Why so serious?

[Vrky]

Dwarf fortress tries to be a more or less realistic game, set in a fantasy environement. So it takes clearly fantastical elements, and allows those to react by clearly defined rules of nature.

So, I say that we need to put this in, but players should not complain when their massive gate is easily smashed in by a giant, or requires more than 3 times the materials as a small one. All things should have good and bad sides. To illustrate it with a quote:

A game where there's one action that is clearly superior is not a game, but a puzzle

So let people build their gates, and let their dwarves admire them, and let them be brutally slaughtered when the goblins come.

This!
It's not about realism or fantasy, it's about consistency of rules. Large gates would be easier to destroy than small ones. But if you need to let collosus in your fort or build elephants stables (!!) in your fort, then big gates are a must.
I could definitely see large gates leading into entrance area, where depots and maybe elephant stables/monster pens would be located, and then small and fortified gates would lead to inner fort. Big gates would impress visitors and give dwarves a happy thought, but shouldn't be relied to whitstand siege.

[Helgoland]

Oh, my apologies. I thought this was the suggestion forum. I didn't realize I was talking to the people in charge of Dwarf Fortress development. Thanks for clearing that up.

Annnnd the thread's over.

Or is it?

As far as I can see DF is in great parts doing huge and needlessly complicated stuff while adhering strictly to "Magic A is Magic A". It's not entirely about realism, but about consistency; let us have huge gates, but make them as expensive and impractical as they would realistically be. That should satisfy both builders and simulationists.

[Revanchist]

I think that pointlessly overcomplicated and expensive assemblies are a core part of the dwarven spirit.
Remember the Dwarven Calculator? That had no purpose other than "it was fun", unless I missed something. Yet it got immense praise.

[ExecratedDwarf]

Exactly people. Arguing something shouldn't be in the game because its historically inaccurate is silly. And arguing that it should be implemented only in a manner that makes using them detrimental is mean-spirited. I like this game because it stays true to the reality in which its rooted. Toady has done a great job maintaining continuity and I don't see how gates would change that.

[Helgoland]

[...] and I don't see how gates would change that.

No! They're the beginning of the end! The thin end of the wedge! The gates of DOOM!

[ExecratedDwarf]

[...] and I don't see how gates would change that.

No! They're the beginning of the end! The thin end of the wedge! The gates of DOOM!

So it would appear. Though I think the main issue is just that some people enjoy shooting down the ideas of others. Gates and other architectural constructions would be a great addition to later gameplay. I mean there are mods that actually destroy stones to prevent build-up. Why not instead find a use for them? A gateway 5x5x3 could cost 25 blocks plus materials for the portcullis. It'd be awesome to have dwarves entering my fort immediately gain a happy thought along the lines of: He has been inspired by a majestic arch recently. He was been awed by a grand entrance. He has been impressed by a skillfully designed gateway lately.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Making a huge calculator is difficult.
Making a huge door won't be.

There's a difference between a megaproject and something that the game specifically has rules for. Is building a window out of polished stones a megaproject?

-----

I'm not against the idea, but as long as drawbridges can act as placeholders and there's more interesting fruit to pick--some of which, e.g. moving fortress parts, will make it easier to make and more interesting and worthwhile-it can wait.

[Revanchist]

Making a huge calculator is difficult.
Making a huge door won't be.

There's a difference between a megaproject and something that the game specifically has rules for. Is building a window out of polished stones a megaproject?

-----

I'm not against the idea, but as long as drawbridges can act as placeholders and there's more interesting fruit to pick--some of which, e.g. moving fortress parts, will make it easier to make and more interesting and worthwhile-it can wait.

No... and you have a point. Yet in some situations many simple things can become projects. Other than creative ways of killing nobles. Crystal glass windows without many rock crystal can be a challenge, but some people here might get off onenjoy the difficulty.

My point being, if Toady is planning on adding them, why argue about putting them in?

[GreatWyrmGold]

You're preaching to the choir.

Problem is, once a debate gets going someone's going to disagree with my "common-sense" notions...

[Bytyan]

Huge doors make perfect sense when you take into account the other fantasies of the setting. Dwarves have near exclusive access to 1-3 untapped ecosystems loaded with resources ripe for plundering, letting them better equip themselves for k-selection, and they measure the value of a settlement almost solely on the wealth it produces and displays. A city might become capital in 10 years or less with fewer than one twentieth the population of the current capital simply by exporting enough wealth.  Dwarves tend to suffer techno worship, developing the finest and most complicated traps and alloys while neglecting simple and effective weapons that can be produced outside the dwarven traditional image. High fantasy dwarves are haughty and distant, perfectly willing to neglect the other races if they can be certain they are better than them. Or they tend to be. I always thought of df as more low fantasy then high. What better show of superiority then a bronze door that would take a giant to close, and a simple wooden ram to open?

[10ebbor10]

[...] and I don't see how gates would change that.

No! They're the beginning of the end! The thin end of the wedge! The gates of DOOM!

So it would appear. Though I think the main issue is just that some people enjoy shooting down the ideas of others. Gates and other architectural constructions would be a great addition to later gameplay. I mean there are mods that actually destroy stones to prevent build-up. Why not instead find a use for them? A gateway 5x5x3 could cost 25 blocks plus materials for the portcullis. It'd be awesome to have dwarves entering my fort immediately gain a happy thought along the lines of: He has been inspired by a majestic arch recently. He was been awed by a grand entrance. He has been impressed by a skillfully designed gateway lately.

The human merchant has been intimidated by a massive portecullis recently...

[dizzyelk]

I'm not against the idea, but as long as drawbridges can act as placeholders and there's more interesting fruit to pick--some of which, e.g. moving fortress parts, will make it easier to make and more interesting and worthwhile-it can wait.

Plus, with moving fortress parts, you could build a wall that swings shut, or drops down, and make a gate your own self, which would be a better way to do it IMO.

[Revanchist]

So are we agreeing to save these for the moving fortress arc? That way Toady can tackle a mountain when he's ready to.