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[Pirate]

I'm wondering how will climbing affect Fortress mode.
Will goblins scale my walls now during sieges ?
Will snatchers sneak inside over the walls ?
Maybe monkeys will also try to get over my walls ?
Prisoners climbing out of poorly constructed pits ?
etc.
And I thought vampires and undead were awesome

[I am Leo]

I reckon creatures will have a climbing skill dictating how likely they are to fall off, and dwarves will incorporate climbing into pathfinding. The end result will be that you will lose dwarves by the hundred to optimistic pathfinding accidents.

[pisskop]

Id imagine it uses agility until something not-so-harmful is found.  Climbing is really what, AGL and STR?  Maybe INTuition for pathfinding and not trying to path like a flying squirell.

[Ieb]

The solution is obviously to hire a large engraving-squad from your useless migrants, to keep the stupid dwarves from climbing up walls.

I also bet that they will only climb UP walls, but they will not climb down or give any message about being unable to path where they were going, leaving it up to the player to spot the miserable, dehydrated and starving dorfs that trap themselves every week or so.

[Pirate]

I'm loving this
I wonder if there will be ladders. They could be a safe way to climb up and down.

[pisskop]

The solution is obviously to hire a large engraving-squad from your useless migrants, to keep the stupid dwarves from climbing up walls.

I also bet that they will only climb UP walls, but they will not climb down or give any message about being unable to path where they were going, leaving it up to the player to spot the miserable, dehydrated and starving dorfs that trap themselves every week or so.

Wait until the bronze colossus climbs a dwarven ladder w/out physical trouble or breaking it.

[Noodz]

I think climbing is good, but the additional pathfinding will be a serious computational burden. Maybe restrict climbing to invaders?

[Seraphim342]

The solution is obviously to hire a large engraving-squad from your useless migrants, to keep the stupid dwarves from climbing up walls.

I also bet that they will only climb UP walls, but they will not climb down or give any message about being unable to path where they were going, leaving it up to the player to spot the miserable, dehydrated and starving dorfs that trap themselves every week or so.

Like s kitten stuck up a tree =p

I hope the change won't be so significant that we have to re-learn every aspect of fortress building ever, though. 

[wagawaga]

The solution is obviously to hire a large engraving-squad from your useless migrants, to keep the stupid dwarves from climbing up walls.

I also bet that they will only climb UP walls, but they will not climb down or give any message about being unable to path where they were going, leaving it up to the player to spot the miserable, dehydrated and starving dorfs that trap themselves every week or so.

Like s kitten stuck up a tree =p

I hope the change won't be so significant that we have to re-learn every aspect of fortress building ever, though.

Unless you're talking about above-ground fortresses, only outdoor spaces and entrances will be influenced much by climbing.
When enemy digging gets implemented though... that's going to be a real pain.
I really hated it when enemies completely screwed up my dungeon desing in Dungeon Keeper, and I'd hate it to happen in DF as well. At least we got constructions here.

[Starver]

I already partly design my fortresses to have at least somewhat protection against (so far non-existent) construction-destroyers and creatures with a 1Z climbing (and presumably jumping down) ability, or 1-tile's-worth-of-gap bridging ability, and even some protection against sappers/soil-diggers.  If we get creatures that start to have these capabilities, then I imagine I'll be designing my fortresses to the next level of protection.  Cavity walls filled with water and/or magma, overhangs above walls, wider gaps and[1] deliberately attractive traversable obstacles that just lead into even better-equipped killing/trapping zones in the transitional bits.

Anyway, that's the impact on me.  Impact on the game is that suitable units will probably invoke a more intensive pathfinding algorithm, to some additional performance deficit upon their arrival.

[1] Depending on how the revised pathing algorithms work out their new siege-entry strategies, as discussed in countless "Improved pathing" threads.

[Kofthefens]

I already roof everything in, so it shouldn't be an issue. Also, one could use a method like they use for squirrels:

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This is a cross section view.

[Drazinononda]

I think climbing is good, but the additional pathfinding will be a serious computational burden. Maybe restrict climbing to invaders?

What additional pathfinding?

[Starver]

What additional pathfinding?

Imagine a 'maze walls' entrance, like some people use...

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->..++=+++=++..->
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That's a walled 'switchback' with some bridges for a short path that can be pulled up and some traps on the switchbacked routes.

Simple pathing would be straight through, with the bridges down, but if the bridges were pulled up, then...

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A current sieging force can only recalculate a path around the bends (and across the traps, which might make some hesitate).  But an army with climbers could ideally just clamber over the walls adjacent to where the bridges were pulled up (or on top certain walls, wander around up there and then clamber down at the other side, if that's less of a movement penalty).  And a sieging force with at least two 'bridging' items in their possession (another 'improved enemy AI/ability' option discussed in the past) could also just lay their own bridging materials across those gaps for everyone to wander through as before, if done wisely, and not used to bridge random pools that never really needed bridging in the first place.

When you get climbers/etc (whether restricted to clim-capable invaders, universal to those with the ability or somewhere in-between) you basically need to re-vamp the pathfinding algorithm to  allow those that can climb to generate climb-worthy paths (which in one implementation may mean duplicating the current non-climbing pathfinding information and then expanding it greatly with all the places they can now reach that they couldn't before, as well as 'simplifying' that version of the pathing algorithm with quicker routes for which climbing is a necessity).

You can see the difference right now, with flying enemies.  Flying enemies can route around non-walkable barriers by accident (random walking(/flying)) or by finding a walkable route (which may be twisty, liek the above) and using that as 'permission' to just fly over obstacles/gaps that are suddenly presented in their paths.  If there isn't a walkable route, then flyers (with access to just the basic walkable-route pathfinding data) only 'randomly' wander into areas sealed off in a ground-only fashion (but, once there, will run rampage).  Or at least that's how hit has been, but may have changed.  Amphibious(/'magmaphibious') creatures probably are affected the same, with the appropriate non-obstacles.



In short, non-universal climbing is probably going to mean a performance hit.


(A shorter reply is: If all units did their own, and only their own, pathing calculations from scratch, then it would probably be not much more intensive.  May even be less, as climbers reach their destinations sooner.  But it's already optimised to some extent (to save some amount of duplication) and now you need now to double-(or triple-, or quadruple-)up the shared data to take account of those-that-can-climb and those-that-can-fly and those-that-can-swim and those-that-can-climb-and-swim and... etc, on top of the basic one for those-that-can-only-walk...)


If I'm misremembering anything, apologies, but search for "Advanced Pathfinding Algorithm", or something in the forum (DF Suggestions, especially).  You'll find several threads around with pathfinding as a subject, within which a number have discussions of dealing with creatures that can fly/climb/jump/bridge/tunnel (or any combination of these) on top of the normal pathing.

[Escapism]

I think implementing it as a last resort when no path can be found normally won't mean much for performance. And, as goblin ambushes come as a group, you could maybe make the pathing run one/two/three times, then have the whole group use those pathings.
What do invaders path to, anyway? The meeting hall?

[Bloodyharbinger]

I think making walls not able to be dug out will create a new wall making portion to the game where all underground areas will have to be walled off. Also, are walls smooth? If so, then they shouldn't be able to scale walls.

Will be really interesting to see how things play out with new changes.